Discussions
What Do You Believe?
Posted by kingskid • 9/08/07 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Tags: Bible, christianity, question, religion, trinity
Do you believe in the Trinity; God in three “Persons”? Or the Oneness of God??
WHY?
Biblically, scripture references, please.
Visit: kingskid49.wordpress.com/2007/09/02/do-you-believe-in-the-trinity/
User Comments
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I think it's interesting that you ask people what THEY believe and why, but then limit them to beliefs that can be supported through the reference that YOU deem reliable. That's not really asking what others believe, is it?-
That is precisely why I find these threads so tiresome. These aren't really discussions. They are attempts to restrict how we see things. Have you ever seen someone start such a thread on these boards and then be willing to engageg in alternative points of view? I haven't. And if discussion is the point, where is Kingskid now. I'm expecting him to sweep in later and tell what *the* truth is. -
Stoneman, you are so on target. These discussions are nothing but attempts to get controvery stirred, and little else.
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I believe that threads like this add little value to BlogCatalog, MadameX's comments excepted, of course.
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Surely not less than "What did you eat for breakfast"?
I do note, though, that there are 10 groups dedicated to religious discussion here, and each of them is devoted to a particular perspective and seems designed to attract others of a particular (matching) mindset. Since there do seem to be so many people interested in religious debate and the larger questions--or at least, a very vocal minority--why doesn't someone create a group for diverse religious perspectives or debate?-
Make that 11 groups...i've got my own, and i'm the only one in it. But I love the dialogue that goes on here and so long as we happily disagree, it's fine by me. -
MadameX ...maybe a group out of this discussion board is a good idea.
And everybody could argue for 3 days about what to call it :-) -
Surely we will not be at a loss for words!
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'Surely not less than "What did you eat for breakfast"?'
I'm not so sure. I've pretty much had it with these threads. I must really learn to control the impulse to click.
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Can we use the Bible and the Scriptures that the Apostles and their disciples used or do we have to exclude those books thrown out by the so called reformers?-
I think we're supposed to call those "those books the Catholics put in". As opposed to...well...um...
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Madam - I am still trying to figure out where the Bible gets it's authority if it doesn't come from the Church which declared it. The phrase circular logic keeps coming to mind :-)
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As I asked before, Driewe, what translation of scripture do you read? You write from the head a lot and I see little heart.
Who, these days, speaks in Thou's, Thee's and all that formal rhetoric? Sounds like a lot of programmed memorization. Please try to make your language more palatable and accessible today. Thanks. -
Globalgirl, this surprises me very much. You are usually so kind and reasonable--I would never have expected to see you suggesting that someone should change the way he expresses himself to suit you better.
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Tiffany, I don't want to offend Driewe (or anyone here), really. It is just that his writing seems very distant to me and appears like he is copying text versus simply communicating what is in his heart and mind. Perhaps I am making an erroneous assessment. I own that. I would like to hear what he has to say but I'd like to hear it more informal than formal.
Maybe others like the thees and thous and -eths at the end of words in every day language. I simply find it dated.
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To answer the main question, What Do You Believe, the same thing as the guys who God had determine which Gospels were True and which were false, the ones who shed their blood for the Gospel and defended it from the Gnostic heretics....
I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotton, begotton of the Father before all ages, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotton, not made, of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again according to the scriptures; and ascended into heaven and sitteth at the right hand of the Father.
And He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there shall be no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spake by the prophets.
In one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church; I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins; I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the Age to .come. Amen-
I'm interested in the linguistic differences in your Creed. Not the substantive difference--I knew about that. But your language is more formal throughout, even where the substance is identical. For instance, we say "all that is seen and unseen"
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it's a bit odd that you say only biblical references
Belief is only an idea, not necessarily Truth, just a hope that one day you might be right, and you may be.
But the Trinity is One, 3 facets of the same diamond...and the Trinity is not just Christian.-
Hi Acoustic,
I would say the Trinity as defined by the 1st Ecumenical council has it's unique qualities. Opponents as you know would claim it is Platonic influence on Christianity :-) The Orthodox view is that Christ was Prophesied through both the Jewish Prophets and through the Pagan mythology.
I mentioned that one day and had a gasp. But asked "where in the old testament does it clearly spell out that God would become man, die and descend into hades, destroy death and resurrect himself". It's all over the place in Pagan mythology.
The Jews who rejected Christianity rejected because they saw it as another pagan God-Man religion like Mithras. And/Or as Idolatrous for worshiping Jesus Christ as God. -
Actually Acoustic, I see an important difference.
You say 3 facets
We say 3 Persons. The three persons exists in a community of Love. Love is a relationship of I/Thou. Love exists where there is an object of love. If God didn't exist as a community of persons where could Love be.
If I understand what St. Augustine taught he saw the Holy Spirit as the Love between the Father and The Son. Unfortunately, I have to reject that along with the Cappadocian Fathers because it destroys the personhood of the Holy Spirit.
Note: When the term person is used her it is not in the same context as saying some human individual is a person
The rest is a Cut and paste on what is meant by persons (hypostasis):
source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypostasis_%28Christianity%29
It was mainly under the influence of the Cappadocian Fathers that the terminology was clarified and standardized, so that the formula "Three Hypostases in one Ousia" came to be everywhere accepted as an epitome of the orthodox doctrine of the Holy Trinity. This consensus, however, was not achieved without some confusion at first in the minds of Western theologians, who had translated hypo-stasis as "sub-stantia" (substance, and see also Consubstantial) and understood the Eastern Christians, when speaking of three "Hypostases" in the Godhead, to mean three "Substances," i.e. they suspected them of Tritheism. But, from the middle of the fourth century onwards the word came to be contrasted with ousia and used to mean "individual reality," especially in the Trinitarian and Christological contexts. With regard to the doctrine of the Trinity, hypostasis is usually understood with a meaning akin to the Greek word prosopon, which is translated into Latin as persona and then into English as person. The Christian view of the Trinity is often described as a view of one God existing in three distinct hypostases/personae/persons. It should be noted that the Latin "persona" is not the same as the English "person" but is the same as the English "persona." -
fascinating driewe
I think everything is definitely worth exploring and people should not fear that they'll turn into a devil worshipper for questioning the validity of something, regardless how close to their heart they may hold it. An open mind is a good thing. And we must be prepared to find out that we may be wrong, and I'm not saying anyone is wrong...what's required is incredible courage to face the fact that what we have spent our life dedicated to, worshipping, preaching about could be only an opininion and not Truth at all. But the end of religion, mystisicm or what ever you want to be part of, is compassion, love and other virtues. And with those things as a yardstick, I think we can safely traverse the diversity of different Faiths or Pathways with an open heart and mind. -
Driewe, What version of the bible do you read? You quote more from other sources than the Word of God. I get the impression you are not comfortable substantiating your faith within scripture but you go to Catholic sources to reason.
I confess I am not used to this as a Christian. It reminds me of when I grew up within an Episcopalian church yet never felt or witnessed the love of God. It was all about tradition rather a PERSONAL relationship with the living God. I don't want the traditions of men. I want a relationship with the living, loving and amazing God; His life revealed in me! -
It's an interesting perspective, and I think it's worthwhile to hear this approach,,but I think he should trim it back a little to make it more accessible
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This translation is by Archbishop Dmitri, www.stseraphim.org/clergy.html
You might be interested in seeing his translation of the Six Psalms (it is from the Septuagint, which the Roman Catholics use the Vulgate translated from the Septuagint by St. Jerome, which you probably knew) These Psalms are read at Matins (Greeks and Eastern Rite call it Orthros) the daily morning service. I am not sure if that is the same as Low Mass in the Western tradition or not. Maybe you could clarify that for me.
The Six Psalms (3, 37, 62, 87, 102, 142) **Septuagint numbering**
www.stseraphim.org/sixpsalms.html -
Driewe, I appreciate the works of St Augustine and the Desert Fathers, as well as contemporary Catholic writers (Dorothy Day, Thomas Merton, Henri Nouwen, etc).
However, your posts have the feeling of cutting and pasting instead of communicating at ease. It is so formal that it makes me want to sit up and have my back straight when I read it. Also, you are quoting a lot of Catholic liturgical stuff here and losing me in the process (like you are speaking Latin).-
Sorry about that globalgirl, I couldn't shout the liturgical stuff over to Madam, and based on her linguistic curiosity I thought she would find that interesting.
And please do not confuse my disapproval of St. Augustine's Theology with a disapproval of his commentaries. No Saint is infallible and all require some degree of guidance in reading so that one knows what is accepted by the Church as a whole and what might be borderline or may I say due to could be taken incorrectly. St. Augustines devotionals to Christ are awesome, "You have made us for yourself, O Lord" "and our hearts are restless until they find their rest in You"
Do you have Benedicta Ward's copy of "The Sayings of the Desert Fathers"? I really like the icon on the cover of that particular publication
My copy has a preface by Metropolitan Anthony of Sourozh (reposed 2003, Memory Eternal!). I really enjoy his book "living prayer". If your interested his writings are online www.metropolit-anthony.orc.ru/eng/
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I think God has nothing to do with this world. He did not create space time, or how come that anyone in space time, if truly limited to its laws, lacks so many characteristics of God, that this could not possibly come from Him? -
I believe in facts which always will win at any conditions-
What is believe in the first place? What does it serve? Why believe at all, and not simply be the facts?
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I believe in Love, and there is no greater Love than when a Person lays down their life for a friend.
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Well, so be this love. Certainly no one could top that, could he?
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I find I am laughing about all these threads. It isn't that the content is funny but it is the fact that we continue to ask these philosophical questions because we all know that there is more to this world. It is like we are all trying to communicate our truth to anyone who will listen... so interested are we in making our point known that we often don't listen to the real heart beat of another.
Imagine if we were sitting around a coffee shop, asking these philosophical q's like the times of Socrates. I can see this!
Here I go again.
It makes me not want to come into these threads but I find I must. Fancy that!
Maybe it is my OCD at work -
FSM
the flying spaghetti monster -
In believing, am I not stating that I do not know, that I am separated from what I believe in, and keep the separation by valuing belief more than experience? Yet how is it that I can say, I do not know? Wouldn't I have to know, to even make such a statement?
It seems like anyone who just beliefs is in denial of truth.
Or in other words, is belief basically conflict? There is this, and here I am, different, trying to reach what seems to escape me forever? Yet where is this except constructed in my and by my belief in my mind?
A realized being like Meister Eckhart certainly did not spend his day with musings such as these, did he? Well, you may say, it is for keeping me on the right track and advance in my vision of life.
Is it really? What is keeping you from going to your ultimate goal in the first place?-
A realized being, if Meister Eckhart actually was, would spend his time in contemplation on Love. The Greater the Love the Greater the Suffering. There was no greater suffering than what Mary experienced when she saw her son nailed to the Cross (it fulfilled the prophecy of the sword piercing her heart) There was no Greater Joy than when she saw him Resurrected. She bore the one whom the universe could not contain in her womb.
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David, how do you know all this?
Wasn't Mary afraid when she came to the grave in the morning? I guess, any human would be. It scares the shit right out of you, when you encounter light so strong. -
David,
how would you know that Eckart wasn't realized?
Maybe, because you are not realized? But how would you know that?
Lesson number one of A Course In Miracles...
Nothing I see means anything.
It never goes beyond that, and:
My thoughts don't mean anything.
Thank God. -
DRIEWE, I know that the Catholic Church esteems Mary like no other - But come on, ALL Christians once they know the gospel have grief over Christ's death and great joy in His resurrection.
I lived and continue to work amongst the Mayan people in Guatemala and the Catholic traditions are rampant. During Semana Santa (Holy Week) they make these great statutes and revere Mary like she was deity. I hate to disappoint everyone, but she was a sinner like all of us. And, to boot, according to scripture, we are all ALL saints, all who are a part of Christ's church. Man does not appoint a Saint. God does. "Saints by calling" is what the scriptures teach.
I Cor. 1:2
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ..." -
Globalgirl, Protestants are always objecting to Catholic doctrine by asking for scriptural support--can you point us to the place in the Bible where it's revealed that Mary sinned? The apostles certainly did, and their sins and redemption (or, in one case, lack thereof) formed the basis of critical lessons. From whence does the information that Mary was "a sinner like all of us" come?
I also think that you have a significant misunderstanding of the beatification process--I know of no church that claims to "appoint a saint", least of all the Catholic church. The beatification process is one of investigation and identification, not decision. -
Tiffany, great question: Jesus was not sinless because of Mary. Jesus was sinless because He was God, born through the Holy Spirit and free of the genetic DNA of the sin of mankind. Although Mary was a virgin when Jesus was conceived (and through her pregnancy!) she was HUMAN. This miraculous act was also a prophetic fulfillment from the OT.
"Can you point us to the place in the Bible where it's revealed that Mary sinned" - I can't find a scripture verse that specifically states that Mary sinned (but such is true of numerous people in the Bible). However, just because it is not stated does not mean she was sinless. If we follow that logic, there would be loads of sinless people in the Bible, making the sacrifice of Jesus foolishness.
By looking at how Jesus was described in scripture, we learn a lot about humanity:
1 Sam.2:2 says there is "NO ONE holy as the Lord". In Rev.15:4 we see the redeemed singing the song of the lamb in heaven "You ALONE are Holy." The word to look at is: alone. Jesus ALONE is holy because he was sinless and deity.
Jesus was not genetically related to Mary nor Joseph. He was born of Mary through the Holy Spirit. Both Mary and Joseph, like the rest of humanity had and inherent sin nature. Jesus was the perfect sacrifice for the sins of mankind because He alone was sinless. He was not born of the corruptible seed. He was born of the Holy Spirit. He ALONE was and is holy.
Other notable verses:
2 Corinthians 5:21: God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Hebrews 4:15: For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are -- yet was without sin.
And in the book of Revelation we see:
"HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME."
Only Jesus is worthy of our worship. No other name, no other person, simply Jesus. -
Tiffany, let's look at how the term saint was used in scripture:
One of the passages in I Corinthians expresses the use of the term saint to describe the church, the called out body of Christ. This is a significant passage, showing that it was the church of God in Corinth, who, after being born again to the living hope of Christ, were called saints. This shows they were not dead and called saints. They were alive and called saints.
I Cor. 1:2
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, SAINTS BY CALLING, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ..."
According to the Bible, a saint is one who is sanctified (2 Chron. 6:41). We also see in the NT that Christians were all called saints. (Heb. 13:24; Jud. 1:3; Phile. 1:5, 7). By virtue of this, we see that saints are ALIVE and called saints, not dead and then made a saint.
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Maybe it would be more an experience to visit my blog for a minute. I really tried to advance the look of it, and also make it more user-friendly.
Due to some advice of Coeli. Thanks to him.
teachingacourseinmiracles.blogspot.com/
Let me know if you like it, or see anything else to improve...
Or disregard it all together. I am getting sort of tired.
Cheers,
Alban -
People say I'm crazy for believing this, but I believe that robots are stealing my luggage. -Steve Martin-
but don't worry, they've got tracking devices, they all have mobile fones
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You need traveler's insurance!
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Before I click on anything, I want to say that I believe in a God and that he is watching this thread here.
So is his son and all the Angels. I don't think the holy Spirit is in this post at all or the thread and i don't see the word Trinity in a Bible anywhere in my home.-
there is some beautiful material about the Holy Spirit by the great Sikh Guru Kirpal Singh
and it's all good news -
Isn't that interesting?
The word "Trinity" is NOT found in the Bible, but there are numerous passages in scripture that indicate a triune God.
Given Kingskid asked for such references, here you go (and for those without a bible, simply go to www.biblegateway.com/) -- I see some yawning here. It is interesting, really.
ONE GOD - Deut 4:35; 6:4; Isa 43:10; 1 Tim 2:5.
The FATHER is GOD - John 17:1-3; 1Cor 8:6; 2Cor 1:3; Gal 1:1; Phil 2:11; Col 1:3; 1Peter 1:2.
The SON is GOD - Isa 9:6; John 1:1-18; 5:18; 8:58; 20:28; Rom 9:5; Col 2:9; Titus 2:13; Heb 1:8-12; 2Peter 1:1.
The HOLY SPIRIT is GOD - Acts 5:3-4; 2Cor 3:17-18. Implied in - Mark 3:29; John 15:26; 1Cor 6:19-20; Heb 9:14. "Spirit of God" - Gen 1:2; Gen 31:3; Num 24:2; 1Sam 19:20; 2Chr 24:20; Job 27:3; Isa 61:1; Ezek 11:24; Matt 3:16;12:28; John 4:24; Rom 8:14; 1Cor 7:40; Eph 4:30. -
I don't see the word bible in the bible either
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Kingskid, that's a scary gloomy pic on your blog. Why does Christianity always have this Dark cloud of gloom and doom?
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Not to offend Kingskid, but this can be a turnoff. Let's focus on the love of God, His resurrection and the life He gives.
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It is a picture of a lion and a lamb together, it is not so "gloomy" in a larger size.
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I believe the trinity in one GOD. I understand how it is but i can't describe it logically because our mind trully can't understand it. How we can understand it is only through this: faith and experience walk in Him.-
faith is wonderful, but it is just the beginning
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No-
to which question
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Albran, The Mary who saw her son nailed to the Cross didn't come the grave in the morning. You misread my post.
But you are right, the light is startling, thats why the disciples fell to the Ground when Jesus Christ revealed his divinity on Mount Tabor. -
Albrn, I never said Meistr Eckhart was or was not. I wrote "A realized being, if Meister Eckhart actually was ..." that is not stating Echhart is not realized, it does express that I do not know and have reservations. I do not follow his tradition.
If I had written "A realized being, which Meister Eckhart was not ..." then that would have been a different story.-
Allright, however, the idea of contemplation to me is still an indication of a state of mind of separation. A realized being is one who has overcome all separation states and IS himself what you suggest he would contemplate on. Therefore, a realized being only loves, for that is what he is.
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I fell Oneness and I beleive that everything in the Universe is connected to each other through some kind of network which is called unconditional Love. This Love accepts everything and allows them to be what they choose to be. Choises create our reality. They blossom and give sweeth fruits if they are based on unity consciousness. Oneness manifests itself in endless ways which is beyond the understanding limits of mind. Use your mind as a tool to direct your intuitions and dreams and there you have the holy trinity of body, mind and spirit.
My reference is my hearth dear friend. -
Interesting discussion. -
I believe in the Almighty.
The one maker of us all
and who makes all things possible.
Many stories are told about him.
He is called in many different names,
and he appears in many different forms.
The divine breath.
He sees, he hears, he feels.
And yeah, he is watching and joining
this discussion right now....:) -
The oneness of God and the Trinity aren't separate things. The triune nature of God is spoken of throughout the scriptures from Genesis all the way through Revelation.
In the very first verse of Genesis we are told of the Trinity. In Bibles today it says "God". The original Hebraic writings said "Elohim" The word "El" is singular, the word "Elohim" is plural.
We can further surmise based on various scriptures within the Bible of what each person in the trinity does. God the Father, creates. God the Spirit, saves. God the Son, justifies.
The most telling thing beyond scriptures is that we, humans have been created in a triune nature just as God is a triune person. We have a body, a spirit and a soul. That's what makes us, us. Our body is what our spirit inhabits, our soul is what tempts us towards evil, and we are spirit mixed in with all of it.
You want references and links?
www.biblegateway.com
There ya go! Start reading. It's all the reference you'll ever need. Want a trip? Read the first 3 chapters of Genesis and then go read the first chapter of John. -
Globalgirl,
I have an Evangelistarion and Praxapostolos that are translated directly from the fourth century Codex Sinaiticus. Due to convenience of the Protestant bibles having both the Gospels, Acts and Epistles in one bound book I use it on frequent basis but I interpret based on homilies drawn from the Church Fathers that determined which books belonged and which didn't.
It should also be noted that prior to the 4th century there was not one pristine copy of the Gospels. When they got together to evaluate the books they found that there were variations in all the texts.
How did they determine what belonged and what didn't? When you have 10 flavors of the Gospel of John which one do you take? They edited it based one what was transmitted through Holy Tradition taught, the Oral Tradition, Hymns, Odes and Liturgy of the Church in the first 300 years.
Western translations pull from textus recptus tracts that have been re-edited throughout time. While they are useful, I find most people interpret them completely different than how the Early Church Fathers did. There are some mis-tranlations in modern protestant bibles that reflect pure intellectual dishonest. For example "Faith Alone" has been added to many translatiosn. No where in the original text does it teach we are saved by "Faith alone". I do realize St. Ambrose used the term Faith Alone, however his understanding of what constituded Faith and how one obtained faith was very different. The reformers would take the one section of his writings where he said we were saved by Faith alone and disregard what he wrote prior to that.
I have yet found In the Orthodox Church anything taught that I could not go back and verify was taught consistently through the last 2000 years.
BTW, when disciples of the Apostles had doubts or questions they would write letters to Mary for clarification.
Bottom line, if you don't trust Holy Tradition why trust the scriptures they produced?
Part of it is many people think Jesus carried a king james bible with him. I actually heard a women say she only used the King James Bible because if it was good enough for Saint Peter it was good enough for her!-
Very interesting, what you say about the making of the New Testament. However, this does not explain the contradictory messages in the gospels and the following letters. The hell fire concept does not seem to be consistent with the teachings of Jesus in any way. Also, the idea of judgment got messed up a lot. Yet, we still have John 5, saying, God does not judge.
To say, Jesus taught contradictory ideas, certainly is absurd. Therefore, it must have come from the editors, or even the Apostles who could not completely accept the teachings of Jesus.
To say contradictory messages come from the Holy Spirit, constituting an infallible document is equally absurd. No letter is perfect, for letter is not the spirit's realm. He can communicate only what any channel may allow to let through. -
But, Albran, again, it's your interpretation that those messages are "in no way consistent". What about Jesus' interaction with the rich young man who asked what he had to do? When he was unwilling to do what Christ asked of him, He let him go--because we can always make the choice as to whether or not to accept what God offers and the obligations that go along with it.
It certainly is absurd to suggest that Jesus taught contradictory ideas. It is equally absurd to suggest that because one man thinks he sees a contradiction, the apostles and all of the church fathers must have been wrong. -
Well, Tiffany, did you think I said that there is something wrong with the example you posted? However, if you take the idea of judgment in the New Testament, you can learn quite contradictory ideas. Just look at the reactions from bloggers here. While it says, God does not judge (John 5), and Jesus says, love and don't judge, we still come up with ideas that God will judge us some day, and many of us are terribly afraid of this. What is it based upon? How many sincere Christians do believe in a God of judgment, based on Biblical references? And even worse, how much do we seem to need to believe in a God of judgment? How can a God of Love call forth punishment for his creations?
I think, I don't need to give you references. Isn't it all in there, the hell fire, the purgatory, all sorts of ideas of places and times outside of one's mind and action, meant to be for punisment and correction, that can nonetheless last forever.
The sickness of thinking lies in the idea, that it is external instead of internal, where the issue lies. As Jesus said, you have commited adultery if you even look at someone with lust in your mind. Meaning, the mere thought constitutes the issue in question, and not just the actual physical act, which can only follow the thought. While we focus on external things like acts of the body, the source of the problem, and therefore the chance for healing, will forever escape us.
That is why it takes something like A Course In Miracles. It is radical and fundamenal in its approach to address the real issue of life as we experience it here on planet earth. It does not contradict the teachings of the New Testament, it only clarifies and strengthens the undeniable truth and often seemingly hidden meaning of it. A Course In Miracles does not take away anything from anyone, nor is it concerned with any particular concept or religion or spiritual practice. All I bring to it is my willingness to question my thoughts and ideas without exception.
A Course In Miracles is about a real experience of love, God, reality, forgiveness, and how to practice and teach this in every circumstance of my sojourn here.
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I'm nihilist. I dont believe anything.-
I find it difficult to not believe anything.
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You must have try nihilism. Is it very interestingly. You must doing only what want and dont believe anything.
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So you believe in Nihilism...?..:-) or in other words, you believe in not believing anything..
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I believe in Coffee-God. He look like rabbit. He is heathen deity form Afrika or Brazilia. -
i believe......... -
Is it an obligation to believe in something ? :-)
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I believe not.
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I believe only in feeling. But when saying about church, I'm dont believe to it, but I believe in to infinitely ability man.
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"Who, these days, speaks in Thou's, Thee's and all that formal rhetoric? Sounds like a lot of programmed memorization. Please try to make your language more palatable and accessible today."
Globalgirl, the original Greek text didn't even use common language of the day. We honor God by reserving certain expressions when worshiping.
It may sound like programmed memorization or empty ritual to you, but that is a reflection of you own mind. The ritual is only as empty as the person participating in it.
You also probably think "But isn't liturgical worship difficult for visitors, especially those who aren't Christians and may find it hard to understand? Isn't it better to have "seeker friendly" service to make those people feel at home?" which is a common question.
Answer:
Yes, liturgical worship is difficult for non-Christians to understand. They aren't supposed to understand it. It isn't for them until they embrace Christ. Rather it is the worship of the Church, the illumined, those who through Baptism and Faith have been joined to Christ's body the Church. A 'seeker friendly' service on the Lord's Day, the day of His Resurrection, is a lie. It makes people "feel at home" in a place that is properly alien to them until through hearing the Gospel, through repentance, faith, and Baptism, they put on Christ and are joined to Him. In the early Church, long before Constantine and his supposed corruptions, those who had not been baptized were excluded from the eucharistic portion of the Sunday liturgy. Eucharistic worship on the Lord's day is for believers; the Church has other avenues for reaching "seekers". The daily evening and morning services (Vespers and Matins) are suitable for the unchurched as are classes, picnics, fellowships, etc. But to abandon the early pattern of eucharistic worship for believers on the Lord's Day so that some hypothtical 'unchurched Joe' off the street can understand what is going on is to embrace something that will not be Christian worship, whatever it may be. It is a serious blunder which alienates one from unity with Christ's Church through the ages. We aren't to "make it up for ourselves" in our supposed wisdom!
For sake of argument about "seeker services", imagine that concept in ancient Israel: a Jewish temple worship committee is planning “seeker” friendly worship for "untempled pagan Benhadad." They reason, "All that blood and the stench of burning meat runs ‘em off, and animal sacrifices are expensive. Besides, they feel excluded because they are confined to the Court of the Gentiles. And how can they possibly bear the kosher laws, the washings, the inconvenience of the Feast of Booths...? And those ten commandments are a real hinderance to them coming around because such a 'lifestyle' is so alien to them. It is much too strict. And the tithing! Not to mention circumcision...No one will ever join Israel as God promised Abraham (Genesis 12:3) unless we make it easier for them!"
The Church will not be fully home to you until you are joined to the Church. It will take time for you to get acquainted with Her, Her beliefs, Her practices to the point that you can decide whether you want to be joined to Christ's Body. During that time, we will welcome you and do all we can to overcome that necessary period of 'strangeness.'-
Driewe:
Thank you for explaining your formality as it relates to your religion. I respect your manner of communication.
I agree with you about "Seeker Sensitive" churches, ones that teach more of a psychological message and lose the gospel message in the process. I do not endorse in these churches either because the message of Christ becomes lukewarm or, worse, very cold. However, I do believe there are legitimate believers amongst them, as I do with every mainstream or Catholic church.
Unlike your belief system, I believe that going to church does not save a person. We know this because in the Acts 4:12 Jesus is the only one that saves, "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
In addition, Eph 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;"
I mention these verses because it seems that you don't believe one can be saved apart from the Catholic Church? Is this true? Fascinating, if so, and simultaneously sad.
What do you think of the pedophiles within the Catholic liturgy that molest children and move from place to place committing the same horrors? I find it absolutely repugnant and abhorrent. Have you seen the documentary:
www.deliverusfromevilthemovie.com/index_flash.php
What do you think about these leaders of your church or priests, or Fathers as the Catholic Churches calls them? I find it utterly abhorrent and filthy. The manner that your church has hidden the sins of those who have molested many revolts me, hiding behind their religion, deceiving many.
We are all sinners and need redemption and forgiveness of sins. Certainly, I do not think that I must be a member of your church to be saved. I need Jesus, who brings liberty and freedom, not the religion of man to enslave me.
Jesus is the only one who saves and the Bible is the most critical part of growing in one's faith because "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God".
I bless you in your pursuit of discovering the freedom and liberty Christ has given to all who believe. He is the only one who saves, the only one worthy of praise, glory and honor. I hope you experience the power of the Holy Spirit to grace you with the faith to believe in the simplicity of the gospel message. -
Driewe:
Please explain this paragraph, in light of your most recent post:
"The Church will not be fully home to you until you are joined to the Church. It will take time for you to get acquainted with Her, Her beliefs, Her practices to the point that you can decide whether you want to be joined to Christ's Body."
In your worldview, then, one who is not a part of your Orthodox Church can not be a Christian? Or are you simply stating that I can not understand your religion apart from your Orthodox church? Yes, I agree with this.
Unlike your religion, then, one can understand my faith and what it means to be a part of the called out Body of Christ by reading the New Testament. They do not need to go within a 4 walled building to learn about the Body of Christ. At the same time, we need the Body of Christ for love, accountability, prayer and more as we know that each person offers a special place in Christ's body. We are also exhorted to "not forsake the assembly of one another".
I am a part of Christ's Body because I believe that Jesus is Lord and Savior. Period. Building or no building. I am free in Christ.
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I believe in that thing they call "Nothing." -
Globalgirl
First off I am not Roman Catholic, I am Orthodox, the Church of the Seven Ecumenical Councils. I would trust my daughter around an Orthodox Priest or Bishop long before I would many protestant leaders.
Second I didn't say I believed people can be saved apart from the Church. I said the Holy Spirit works outside the Church, we just do not know how. God can save whoever he wants.
But what are we saved from or better yet, what are we saved for?
Regarding you remarks on Mary
Jesus took his humanity from Mary. She bore him in her womb. In the same manner that a sword put into a fire takes on the attributes of the fire, so it happens with Mary, and with us when we partake of the Eucharist.
There are things in Holy Tradition that can ONLY be understood through proper initiation into the Mystical Body and Life of Christ.
Occording to OT Prophecy she is also ever virgin
We believe that the Virgin Mary is the Mother of God. Through her He Who was God before the ages took on our human nature without relinquishing His divine nature or confusing or "meshing" it with the human nature in any way. The Mother of God is often referred to as the "New Eve," for she said "yes" to God whereas the first Eve said "no." We believe that the Mother of God was sinless of her own free will, that she remains ever-virgin, and that she is the "living tabernacle" of God inasmuch as her womb, as one hymn states, becomes "more spacious than the heavens" by carrying within it the Savior of the world, Jesus Christ.
That sums up what the Church has always believed. If we are wrong then maybe we were wrong when you wrote the Gospels. They didn't fall out of the Sky you know.
Orthodox do not practice Mariolatry
www.oca.org/QA.asp?ID=6&SID=3
The Church Fathers are very their position on Mary. You can take the bible outside the church and give it your own private interpretation, That changes nothing.
www.stseraphim.org/dcchapt4.html
What kind of Freedom are you speaking of? Freedom comes through prayer, fasting, and obedience. With that man is freed from the tyranny of desires that he can truly love God and others. This freedom is available to every Christian who submits himself to Christ and His Church and gives himself to prayer, fasting, and almsgiving.
I once witnessed a preacher waiving a picture of Jesus at woman who suffered depression shouting "Jesus died for you sins so you do not have to go to heaven and not hell, you should be happy not depressed".
We struggle with our passions and sin even after coming to Christ.-
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Driewe: Your comments in quotes and my responses below:
"But what are we saved from or better yet, what are we saved for?"
From death and judgement as a result of sin.
"We believe that the Mother of God was sinless of her own free will"
Interesting. So, following this logic, any person by their own free will can be sinless? I disagree.
"What kind of Freedom are you speaking of? Freedom comes through prayer, fasting, and obedience."
Freedom from the enslavement of the practice of sin. "If the son has made you free then you are free indeed" (John 8:36) We are free because JESUS sets us free! It is not based upon any of my works!
Lastly, you said, "Your doctrine of dispensationalism is foreign to the ancient Church."
I am not a dispensationalist! I believe that EVERY spiritual gift exists today and this is another reason I find the Christian faith to be so exciting! It is dynamic!
And in regard to your just now recent post, "nothing simple about Christs teachings". There are great depths to the Christian message, I agree. However, the message of the gospel is easy to understand for children and adults, literate and illiterate, educated and uneducated, and so on.
This is the simplicity of faith that Jesus Himself spoke of when He so gently said in Mathew 19:14: But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
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I hate to dissappoint you Globalgirl but their is nothing simple about Christs teachings. Following Christ requires denying yourself taking up your cross and following him. Read Matthew Chapters 5,6,7 which are the most extensive collections of his teachings. Your doctrine of dispensationalism is foreign to the ancient Church.
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"We believe that the Mother of God was sinless of her own free will"
Globalgirl writes: "Interesting. So, following this logic, any person by their own free will can be sinless? I disagree."
Correction, that is following your logic. She committed no personal sin. She was prepared starting at the age of three when she was admitted to the temple as a temple virgin.
It is interesting that Elizabeth while filled with the Holy Spirit calls Mary the Mother of her Lord (referring to Jesus Christ, who is God) Luke 1:42
And then
Luke 1:48 For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant; For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.
But you call her a sinner. -
I believe in the oneness of God
God that whom all depend
God who begets not, nor God is begotten
and none of God's creations are like God -
I believe I'll have a beer. -
My belief in the Moon being made out of gouda is stronger than my belief in a God. -
I believe in God, be that the biblical God, Allah, a pagan God or nature itself (but no teapots, spaghettimonster or pink, invisible unicorns).
But no bible fairytales for me.
And I also believe that bumping old threads is supercool! -
@kingskid
Do you believe in the Trinity; God in three “Persons”? Or the Oneness of God??
WHY?
Biblically, scripture references, please.
Visit: kingskid49.wordpress.com/2007/09/02/do-you-believe-in-the-trinity/
No I do not believe in the existence triune christian God as described in the ancient texts that comprise the bible. No I do not place any faith in scripture or institutional doctrine. I consider them only to be guidelines from ancient times - nothing more.
Are you aware that there are 10 pages of answers this question in the forum searchbox?
www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/search.php?q=do your believe in God
Are you aware that there are also 8 pages of Christian BC groups? www.blogcatalog.com/groups/tag/Christian
Are you aware that there are 723 Christian bloggers at BC as well? www.blogcatalog.com/search/Christian -
I did not check the date on this thread and blindly followed your necro-posters who preceded me 11/30/07 - arrgggh!
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I believe both... God is "one" whose essense is split between the three persons. See my posting here on "Who is God?":
crossbearerforchrist.blogspot.com/2008/05/who-and-what-is-god.html -
I see a lot of comments that reflect the idea that Mary did not sin. While scripture does not identify any specific sin committed by her she was flesh and as such had a sin nature.
Romans 3:23 tells us that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God!
Romans 5:12 further tells us, "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned"
Please note the last two words: All sinned!-
you are assuming your tradition of interpretation as vaild hence the problem.
Q. where does the author of Romans quote your supporting NT verses from?
and what was the original context of those verses?
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I firmly believe that God created ice cream so I can really enjoy my summer days. He is the best! -
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Fascinating! If we "discussed" spiritual issues, as opposed to religious issues, these conversations might be more worthwhile. Spiritual issues are personal, and therefore each can believe in what they want. Any related discussions are then what we have experienced as opposed to what another has experienced, because we are speaking of how each of us feels at a particular stage of our spiritual development (I dare not say "evolution"). Religious issues typically stem from codified dogma and are open to varied interpretations. Arguing the rightness of words and rituals is senseless IMHO if we are supposed to be about One God. The common ground is Spirit, and wherein "compassion, love and other virutues" are rooted.
Also, the Trinity (3 separate manifestations that make up One Supreme Being) is not Christian in origin. Long before the Christians "invented" the concept, the Hindus had a long tradition of the Trinity of the Supreme Personality of Godhead (Trimurti or Great Trinity), which actually makes more sense than the Catholic version.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimurti -
This is an old post
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@acousticguitarist
LOL yes, I knew that, but these are some VERY old concepts we are talking about here. -
@spomib
There is an active group you may like to know about. Most of us don't dig the resurrection of dead threads. IMO taking your desire for discussion there may be better placed there than choosing to necro-post to dead threads.
www.blogcatalog.com/group/religious-debate-
But I like religious arguments, it's the only time and place where God isn't, I've tried and tried to escape God but's everywhere
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That's the TRUTH.
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But not everyones
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@acousticguityarist
anok, romantic, theresa and I want to party tonight on the BC forum. We are inviting all of those who promise not to discuss either politics or religion to join us. Would you like to create a Friday night music thread?
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