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Talking of intolerance...
Posted by daniel23 • 4/22/08 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Tags: freedom, religion, texas
Am I the only on to think that the treatment of the Mormon "sect" (loaded term that!) in Texas is totally wrong and disgusting? DNA testing, forcible separation of families, religious and cultural prejudice against them, etc.
I may disagree with their religion and their lifestyle, but I'll fight to the death for their right to live as they please.
It all sounds like the word of professional "cult busters" like the ones who sparked off the events at Waco that led to more than 80 deaths.
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User Comments
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I think the issue there is about child abuse, not religion. Child welfare trumps religious freedom in this case. -
Don't those kids have the right to live as they please? -
So you fell for that line, eh? And even if there is child abuse everything points to the conclusion that the US govt. is the worst possible guardian of children.
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I was "Property of the great State of NY" for many years as a child.
Great health care plan
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Also remember that people can get legally married in Texas at 14.
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Uh, when they are impregnating 13 year olds and inbreeding to the point of causing serious health issues, I think someone should step in.
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Ok so if the government doesn't step in can I go down and shoot the people banging 13 year olds and not stand trial?-
Paedos should be shot, yes. I think 14 is too young for marriage. But that's Texas law.
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You'll need to buy the appropriate tag first. -
Actually it is 16 in Texas, they raised it from 14 when that sect moved there.
Sweet... is there a limit with the tags? -
ok, so they THOUGHT it was 14.
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Oh, in that case, drop the investigation. Pfft
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and I thought I could drive 75 on the freeway... I was wrong
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of course when I was driving 75 my penis wasn't violating a child... so I have that going for me.
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I quote:
"Investigators determined that there is a widespread pattern and practice of the (Yearn for Zion) Ranch in which young, minor female residents are conditioned to expect and accept sexual activity with adult men at the ranch upon being spiritually married to them," read the affidavit signed by Lynn McFadden, a Department of Family and Protective Services investigative supervisor.
www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/08/national/main4000780.shtml?source=search...
Ur, WHAT? That's called Christianity y'all.-
I would be very careful Daniel about revealing you tendencies in such a public forum.
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From what I understand, this isn't about religion or anything except an investigation into child abuse.
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ekim -- watch it buddy. where i come from paedo jokes are for a nonexistent third person. one-on-one and you get your face broke.
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OK, Daniel, that's uncalled for. The vast majority of the Christian community would be shocked and appalled by that statement. There are plenty of people of with no religious afflictions who like the idea of abusing children. None of the Christians (and yes, I'm one) that I know would find any merit in that kind of abuse.
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What? When married women are expected to have sex with their husbands?
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"in which young, minor female residents are conditioned to expect and accept sexual activity with adult men at the ranch upon being spiritually married to them,"
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Daniel, How can you take any side in this other than the "Helpless" children? Shame on you. The adults make decisions and face consequences. Children have the decisions made for them. The Gov has to be their voice.
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oh yeah. the govt burned a bunch of kids ALIVE at Waco.
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CONTEXT DANIEL CONTEXT
two totally different situations -
They were pushed at Waco.
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who were pushed?
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The ATF.
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"pushed" as in "let's see what happens when you open fire on a church full of people"
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Church full of Gun hoarding, non-compliant parishioners. Good stretch Daniel.
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A church full of people harming nobody and leading a silly and crazy lifestyle that it was their right to lead.
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I'm sure it was a healthy environment to raise your kids in.
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I'm sure Utah or a hippy commune or a traditional Catholic family or a celebrity family, etc. etc. ad infinitum, are also far from perfect places for kids to grow up.
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@Daniel23
When authorities get complaints of suspected abuse of children in any of the various other living arrangements prevalent in the USA or Canada they apprehend only the children directly involved. Here we see one 16 year old make a complaint and the cops swoop in a apprehend hundreds of children seemingly, without any evidence that all of them were abused.
The children have been separated from their mothers and traumatized and now they will be compelled to undergo DNA testing.
Yes, I'm concerned. This makes a mockery of "freedom of religion". Who is next? Are they going to apprehend the Mennonite, Hutterite and Amish children too?-
if I get another crappy piece of furniture from them I vote that they sweep in and take them out next.
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they have yet to find the original complainant. and they have credible reason to believe that many of the children are being abused - hence, take all the children. this happens in single family homes as well. if they have a credible complaint that one child is being abused, they often remove all the children until they can decipher the danger. -
Ender, in many states that is not true and not allowed for by law. I have heard that there are states in which it works as you've described here, but in my experience even if abuse is PROVEN as to one child, other children cannot be removed unless there are allegations of abuse against that child. In fact, I can think of one case of a 14 year old girl determined to have been molested by her stepfather and her 13 year old sister was left in the home, and a 6-year-old boy removed after allegations of sexual abuse while his 2-year-old nonverbal brother was left behind. In both cases, child welfare authorities made it clear that they were sick about having their hands tied with regard to the other kids, but had no legal authority to remove them.
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Hey, stopping child abuse is one thing, carting off and DNA testing 100+ kids is another.
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the members don't know who the fathers are for some of the children - they're trying to ascertain paternity.
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they can build a complete case from that. they are trying to figure out who the parents of the kids are. Do the math... Jenny is 9 her mother is Karen who is 21 and her father is Steve who is 42...
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Now that part does concern me actually. What is the point of the DNA testing in relation to child abuse, I wonder?
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The DNA testing is more for the math. How young was the mother, how old was the father.
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In addition, DNA testing for tracing back their original parents.
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Hehe question answered.
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Do they call it a family tree or a family bush?
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shrub
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I don't have a follow up joke to that... well done
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I'm with you on this one Daniel. I agree if there's child abuse but they have no proof of that. And gathering DNA from all these people? That seems over the top. Like there aren't teenage pregnacies in the general population. They don't have proof that early marriage is forced upon young kids...based on what I've seen it's a witch hunt.
I personally don't agree with their lifestyle but so what.-
see above. they have a legitimate reason to do DNA testing.
and they do have proof that there has been statutory rape. -
I thought "so what" too, until I found out that a lot of these polygamists rely heavily on social services, way more than the general population does.
I'm not crazy about tax dollars paying for a lifestyle that promotes child abuse and molestation.
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They can't find the person who made the original complaint ... it may have been a hoax. As for who is who's parent ... what difference does that make to the government?
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well, I agree, if they have proof of them scamming social services then they should charge them with that. But that's not what this case is about.
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Yeah, if you raise a little girl to believe that her goal in life is to marry a dirty old man when she is 14, then I guess it would be consensual.
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"cult busters." At Waco no evidence of child abuse actually materialised either.
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daniel, they had a HUGE stockpile of illegal weaponry...
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what does it matter who the parent is? well if the girl was 13 when she got knocked up it kind of matters
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Most likely the DNA testing is to prove Timeline and not paternity.
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Our general society raises girls to think it's great to get married and have kids...what's the difference? And there's no proof that they raise them to get married at 13. If they do ... that's not right. But the government does not have proof of that.
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they have probable cause. The DNA will be the proof.
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Until the DNA results show that the 2 year old has a 14 year old mom and a 50 year old dad.
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ender -- Well that was not actually established (I believe). And so what? The banning of weapons in the United States is itself illegal under the Constitution.
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Unless the DNA doesn't proove that. Then what?
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Um... I will bet you dollars to doughnuts they will get clear proof out of this. At the worst their rights get violated. What would you rather have them err on the side of child protection and breaking cycles of abuse or people being forced to have their dna taken?
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Dealing with CPS is part of being a parent. I've had my run in's with them but never got my kids taken. The only take the kids if they have a damned good reason.
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@drowsey... so if they didn't take the kids and test them and we find out three years later that 10% of the girls got married at had sex at 13 would you flip out and blame the government for not acting in their best interest?
you can't have it both ways... either they act or they don't -
As long as the government is acting within the law I'm good with it. I'm just saying ... just because they appear weird to us doesn't make them pedophiles. If they have proof of child abuse then it should be dealt with ... otherwise live and let live.
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@pointless, welcome to America, Damned if you do and Damned if you don't.
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The media aspect has been what's really disturbing tho. "they look weird" "they live weird" etc.
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And what's her name from the morning show yesterday asking them why they wear their hair like that. Give me a break! All women in the news business have the same freaking hairstyle! Does that make them weird?
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well the media sucks... there is no debate on that...
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I could get into this in a very personal way but I won't on this forum. We are witnessing the abuse of human rights. Again.
We are witnessing the twisted media reports that delivers the lowest common denominator in north American Society exactly what they want to hear. The parents of these kids are being "tried in the media" prior to any charges being laid, prior to any facts being presented, let alone, an official court proceeding taking place. This is so freaking common today that I could scream.
Authorities that will remove children from a communal environment based on suspicion alone and thrust them into foster homes full of technology doesn't give a toss about the kids and the effects that this trauma will have on them. -
@Timethief ~ I also dealt with this in a very personal way when I had to rescue my niece from abuse when her mom ran off with the "Rainbow Tribe" and had arranged a marriage between my 12 year old niece and an "elder" of the tribe.
Who was 47.
I was able to intervene, but not before the 'marriage' ceremony and 'honeymoon' and believe me, it has damaged my niece to this day in sooooo many ways. -
that's disgusting.
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Yes, and if they prevent ONE girl from suffering then it's all worth it.
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yes but Child Services is chock-a-block full of paedos and sadists isn't it?
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It does have it's problems, in my case I took temp custody of my niece but I would have rather risked her possibly going to a bad foster home than definitely being abused in a tee-pee out in the wilderness with a bunch of lunatics.
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hey do you mean the "Rainbow Family" btw?
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Without getting personal CPS helped out a member of my family, if they didn't I would probably have a dead nephew. So while they aren't perfect I can't say they didn't act in the best interest of people I know.
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Next to the draconian police action based on what thus far looks like only 1 unsubstantiated complaint made by a female who was above the age of sexual consent it's the media that I'm most worried about. They pander to the lowest common denominator in our society -- the ignorant, under-educated and under employed who live in front of their idiot boxes.
Watch this closely because I predict that suddenly the media will forget that the alleged mother of Jesus of Nazareth was probably younger than the alleged complainant in this matter and that Joseph was most likely in his 30's or older. -
social workers are right between vampires and werewolves on my list of scary creatures that live in the shadows
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Pfft, CPS is so overworked and underfunded. They Have to investigate every claim, that gets taxing.
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social services (back home) took away the kids of a friend of my family. bastards.
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@timetheif... the average life expectancy at that point was like 32 years old...
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@daniel what government office isn't on that list for you?
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Well sure. But I prefer your average cop to your average social worker.
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I don't think the social workers are to blame ... I think it's the lousy parents. Let's face it, if adults didn't abuse their children we wouldn't need social workers. You can always find a negative story to validate both sides of this complaint. I'm just worried that the government went way over board in this situation given the little evidence they had in the beginning. But who knows...we're probably not getting the whole story. The fact that seasoned reporters asked the women about their hairstyles rather than something more meaningful kind of tells you where the media is coming from.
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no, social workers stick their noses into everything. there's part of the bureaucratisation of society that Ivan Illich described.
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They had a phone call from a child that was allegedly sexually assaulted. They have to act on it. When they did they saw possible instances of marriage under the age of consent, which the members of the sect have pretty much admitted when they started complaining that the age of consent was changed from 14 to 16 there in television interviews.
What more do they need to act on it? Actually watching them having sex with the kids? -
omg...Ivan Illich. LOL Haven't thought of him in a long time. Hey...I do know situations where kids were saved from very violet situations because of the government/social workers ... so I can't paint them with a broad brush and say they're all bad. I've also heard of cases where kids died when social workers didn't act ... so I think they're often in a no-win situation.
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I actually vomited a little on that last sentence, Keven. Like I dais they don't take kids without a good reason.
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How did they "stick their nose in" it was reported.... UGH I am walking away. No matter what the debate is you either take it down a path dropping examples that are so far out of context. Or you just stick blindly to your side. You sit here and say pedos should be shot but then in the next breath say the government was sticking their nose in it.
How else does it get prevented or stopped? A magic anti pedo fairy that comes down from outer space and cuts their cocks off? -
pointless - we don't arrest parents who's children under the age of 16 get pregnant. The government is assuming that the parents are forcing the kids to get pregnant ... I don't think they have actual proof of that.
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pointless -- Sure, sure. But I object to the way they've gone about it all and, most of all, the attitude that has been took.
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Oh good, pointless noticed the waffling as well.
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pointless -- the "nose sticking" comment was about social workers in general and did not pertain to this specific incident.
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pointless - How to stop paedos? Community justice. "Vigilantism". IRA-style. I'm being quite serious. Do you really trust the govt. to treat kids right? When they BURNED ALIVE those kids at Waco, for instance?
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@Drowsey
"pointless - we don't arrest parents who's children under the age of 16 get pregnant. The government is assuming that the parents are forcing the kids to get pregnant ... I don't think they have actual proof of that."
sigh... it isn't that they are saying... well your kids are underage and getting pregnant it is wrong... They are saying your kids are underage, under the age of consent and getting pregnant by a guy twice their age.
There is a huge difference between two 16 year olds having sex and getting pregnant versus a 40 year old banging a 14 year old. -
I think that "Not pertaining to a specific incident" is your MO.
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MO = momentary observation?
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pointles...sorry I made you sigh LOL BUT - they don't have proof that the girls were getting pregnant by old men. But I guess the DNA will proove that ... you know, the DNA they're getting after the fact. But hey...if it's all legal then okay.
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Motis Operande, it's a common term latin, "They way you operate"
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from what I have read they have had girls say when interviewed by law enforcement that they have been married at a young age and consummated their marriage with an older man
the dna will just be the smoking gun at this point -
See, that's just uncalled for. I outsmart you and you get like that.
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I'm quite aware of what MO means. I do watch Criminal Minds.
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I just answered your question.
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It was in fact a "momentary observation" rather than my "modus operandi". Hence the ironic comment, apparently lost on you.
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I would have accepted MLR (Momentary Lapse of Reason)
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ok, but ekim my comments about social workers were (blindly obviously) quite general. we were talking about child services PER SE.
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@daniel and how do you trust unruly mobs or vigilante justice to be accurate?
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Oh God, that wouldn't be any better.
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the question is really how do I trust the govt. to be accurate?
To twist around and subvert Winston Churchill - Democracy ("rule of the people") is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried. -
well, I trust my government over an group of vigilantes ... not sure about governments in other countries ... but here in canada our government is fairly civilized.
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Neither are going to be accurate. There are problems with the government and there are problems with people acting out on their own. I don't trust either but that is humanity, we are imperfect thus are systems are going to be imperfect be it organized on a formal level or organized amongst a a group of people.
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Well I'm for "rule of the people" rather than "rule of representatives".
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Well, from my own life experience, I can promise you that I would not have lived if the Gov had not stepped in. I tend to air to the side of letting CPS do their job.
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but people are idiots. I'd rather have some kind of organized idiots ... than idiots just running wild.
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ekim -- well i knew a good man who had his kids took away from him. that's wrong.
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how do you know he was "good" ?? Maybe he wasn't behind closed doors.
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so one bad experience makes them all
"yes but Child Services is chock-a-block full of paedos and sadists isn't it?"
excellent -
I believe that governments should be pro-people, and not pro-government.
Vigilante action has its place, but only in the poorest nations because over there they have no choice. -
Drowsey -- i know why they took his kids. and a family is a family thru good times and bad. that's just how it is.
the only reason to break up a family is dangerous physical abuse or paedophilia. -
I think my Bio-mom was thought to be a good woman. I remember how good she was when she gave me a bath and held me under the water til I drowned. She wanted to make sure her little boy got really clean.
People don't often admit to the abuse they deal out to their kids. -
So what I said -- dangerous physical abuse. That's one thing.
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"a family is a family thru good times and bad"
Good times, like when Mother put beer in my bottle? -
that's awful ekim. And I agree...you never really know what's going on inside a family. I'm not sure about the law where you are daniel but I doubt they took his kids from him for something minor.
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they took away his kids because he had a drug problem. that's wrong.
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And I am sure that if he had gotten clean, he would get his kids back. Same thing happened to my neighbor. That idiot asked me for Pee so he could get his kid back. God forbid he should quit doing drugs.
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taking his kids made things worse for him.
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Excuses, excuses.
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yeah people with drug addictions make smashing parents. how could they not err on the side of caution?
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I don't know about your friend, but I know of a family who had their kids taken away because of a drug problem.
They were doing meth 24/7 while their three toddlers went unfed and unbathed.
I'm glad they were taken away. -
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families that starve together um... something something
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Chelle -- "dangerous physical abuse."
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crack den or state home... yeah...
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tah, you load of keyboard philosophers. keep on dreaming up your pretty perfect plans.
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Hehe, I have no plan except to go get some tacos in a bit.
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Daniel is here to chum the waters. A devil's advocate.
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no, i'm never the devil's advocate. i'm nobody's advocate.
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Daniel, can't you think of anything intelligent to say?
Why doesn't your friend go to rehab? -
i'm pretty sure he's dead now. i've had enuf of this conversation
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"they took away his kids because he had a drug problem. that's wrong." You've got to be kidding me. What's wrong is having a drug problem and raising kids. What kind of environment is that for kids?
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Imagine for a moment of being forced to mate with your own father, uncle or any male who fancies some sport!
I for one hope they figure this thing out quickly and for those in healthy families to be restored to them and for those which are confused, for a healthy family relative to care for them. It is sad to take away a child's innocence and betray their trust. -
I have to agree with you Theresa.
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My opinion is that the pedophiles should be handcuffed and thrown into prisons (or deserted island) without any release except to each other. I find their practices of child rape and child brides revolting and disgusting.
No mercy for the men who practice such selfish and dirty deeds.
The children need to be protected and not abused as sex slaves for the sick perversion of vile men. I feel sorry for the children who have been brainwashed and abused. It's heart wrenching.-
I'm honestly surprised that there is so much of it going on, and in plain view.
It is shameful.
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If the abuse cases are true they should be prosecuted.It is hard to tell how much is true. This is the way that Waco was justified,even though they murdered so many of the people they claimed to be concerned for.
I hope the whole truth comes out, what ever it may be, and the correct measures are taken.-
that's all i ever meant to say! cheers Pamela.
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I believe in religious freedom as long as no one is being hurt, abused or held against their will. It is so sad for the children and honest parents. I certainly hope that everything works out well and quickly. So many of these people must feel violated and embarrassed. I will send everyone good vibrations.
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Daniel, your inconsistency confuses me sometimes. On the one hand you've got your socialism, which would never happen without state power. On the other hand, you don't think the state has a role to play when it comes to protecting the weakest members of our society. And you want us all to have guns so we can fight the state.
And your analogies with Waco, well . . .
/me walks away shaking head