Discussions
Public or Private
Posted by johnallisha • 7/22/08 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Tags: public education, teaching, vouchers
Being a public education teacher (6th grade), and seeing what is happening in Washington with the legislature wanting to give vouchers for private schooling to poor and disadvantaged families and students, I am curious to see what others think about private schools vs. public schools. Which schools are better? Do you agree that public monies should be given to families to attend private/religious schools? Post you comments and share!
User Comments
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I've never been in a private school, but I've heard some horror stories from people who attended religious private schools. -
I wrote my congressman a couple of years ago expressing support for vouchers. I hate public schools and a big reason for that is the adult subject matter and delinquency that kids are exposed to through other kids who have bad parents and obviously that's not the school's fault. Sure some of that is in private schools too, but requiring school fees does screen out a lot of it.-
I can see your point. Public education has many problems that need to be addressed, but after talking with some private school teachers and reading on-line, I think they have as amny problems, just different kinds! What a mess!
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I would agree with vouchers if they were practically workable in a way that actually provided equal opportunities for good education in an environment suited to the child's particular needs for all children. I simply don't think that's the case. Issues of geography, transportation, child care, additional expenses triggered by a private school (for instance, uniforms) that aren't covered by vouchers, etc. prevent what's good in theory from being workable in the execution. Thus, in the end, I suspect that the people who benefit most from vouchers will be those who could afford to send their children to private school anyway (and maybe already were) without much actually changing in terms of access and choice.-
I was so frustrated that Utah wanted to give vouchers. We are already one of the worst in the nation with per pupil spending. I live in a rural area and there aren't any private schools around. What about the kids in my area. They don't GET that choice. How is that fair? I agree with you 100%
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Let me begin by saying I am in the education field.
It is a complicated situation, but I am not a fan of government vouchers for a number of reasons.
Clearly, there are problems with public schools but the answer is not govt vouchers but investing into public education! I am appalled by the condition of some schools in my affluent county and the poor curriculum given to students. Let's increase teacher salaries and hire quality teachers to help our children learn. Vouchers contribute to the deterioration of public education by moving needed resources to private schools.-
"the answer is not govt vouchers but investing into public education!"
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I totally agree. -
I agree with this. Being on the side of dealing with all the politics and trying to teach the students- I wish they would actually fund the mandates and hire quality teachers to help our students.
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I agree. Here in Utah our voters told the state NO, loud and clear, and yet when the legislature met, they forced ways to fund pet projects, most that were NOT helpful to education. Educators and parents need to be allowed to give input to the "fixes" that can and need to be made!
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I homeschool my children..oldest is writing an essay right now, so, thus the blogging time. I'm not a fan of public schools.-
Homeschooling is great. I wish I had the opportunity to hs my kids.
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I am sorry that public education didn't work out for you and your family. But I am glad to hear that you are taking an interest in your kids eudcation and providing them with a good one!
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I prefer homeschooling as well and did it for 5 years. I may do it again this year for a child who needs help she is not getting at our PS. -
Is the student lacking support? Is it lack of funding for teachers? Large class sizes, or just simply not able to function in public schools? I know for some kids, they simply can't function in a large group setting.
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No, she has sensory integration problems and possible ASD. Our local IU evaluated her rather poorly (in the same room with another child who was worse than she) and she is not able to get help from the PS system here.
Oh, and their school is "open concept" which isn't working well for her at all. -
Well, then YEA for you for being willing to step in and help where it can't/isn't being given. We need more people willing to step up and help- not criticize! Thanks for that!
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Well, I still have 3 others in public school, 2 waiting to be of age and one at state college. I feel like I'm supporting
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Bad idea. The right-wing answer to everything is privatization and everything they privatize turns into a total disaster. The answer is to fix public schools.-
I agree. I think that is the fight- How do we do that? More money won't jus "fix" the problem. I think that the education world needs a HUGE overhaul! Kids aren't learning the same today and yet we are FORCED to teach them the same as 20 years ago because of high stakes testing. It is frustrating!
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Actually, John, I would say that you're forced to teach them that way not because of high stakes testing but because of a misunderstanding on the part of administrations across the country as to how that high stakes testing works. Having spent more than ten years analyzing standardized tests, teaching standardized test preparation courses, writing curriculum, designing test-like questions and training teacher to prepare students for standardized tests, I can tell you that nearly everything the typical public school does to "prepare" students for these tests is counterproductive to performance.
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I think you are right, now that I think about it. I work hard to find different ways to teach my students. But when it comes to testing, if we don't practice how to fill in that stupid bubble- that one bubble that doesn't really ask what they know- then the students can fail, and I look like a poor teacher- ass because of one bubble (ok, or a couple hundred! :))
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Sorry, I meant to say ALL because of one bubble- LOL
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I am a former Cleveland Public School student. I would have loved to go to a school where you get to bring text books home, the ceiling isn't falling apart, and kids don't want to literally kill you for the color of your clothes.
I'm all for vouchers if the school system is failing the students.
My own children go to public schools in WV. I can't say enough about the school system. The teachers geniuenly care it's not about how much they can be paid to teach my child. When taxes go up in WV it goes to education. The buildings are repaired or new ones put up. I also went to school in WV. I had a broadcast studio in my school in 1992. I don't mind being without a voucher in WV. In OH I do mind. -
I wish we could fix our public schools. Invest more. I also like the idea that some European countries do - each child is allotted a dollar amount, and the money follows them to whichever school they attend. It brings out some competition between schools, and schools are better for it.
My son attends public school at the moment - he's in special ed - but around 6th grade, when I expect some issues to kick in, we'll probably switch to private or at least go somewhere with a private "feel" to it. Smaller, more controlled environment. Fortunately, that's a few years away, and who knows what could change between now and then.
So I'm on the fence here. I think our public school system is broken. I think vouchers are a band-aid. I support them given that the problem doesn't seem to be getting fixed, but I wish we could just fix the problem itself.-
Wow! You hit it on the head. I agree that vouchers are a band-aid. It isn't going to fix the problem. I know that as a teacher, I work hard. I can honestly say harder than many of the teachers I work with. What do I get for it? Nothing, but the satisfaction of knowing I helped the kids. But I fear that competitiveness would almost hurt more schools than it would help- espcecially in rural schools where it is almost impossible to find people to teach as it is.
No child left behind has worked to a degree, but the pressure to keep up and work through programs that the govt. mandates but refuses to fund is also frustrating. So I guess I am with you- I wish we could find the right solution. -
Now THIS is a good idea. The money follows the child. Which countries do this?
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I wouldn't trade my public education for anything. I went on to a private university and learned NOTHING..then went back to public.-
This is interesting. One school I taught at, in an affluent area, would lose kids weekly to a private school down the road. The part I think curious, is that with-in the month, most of the kids were back (and behind my other students). The kids said they hated it. I understand this is ONE private school, in one area, and I am not against private schools. I just found that interesting. I also found the same to be true with the charter schools in the area. However, many, many charter schools are popping up. I worry about those to more of an extent, and I resent that the district is forced to support them, but the students aren't held to the same standards as the rest of the kids in the district that attend public schools.
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I think a voucher system would be excellent. I sent my kids (4) to a private school for several years while we lived in NJ. It was extremely expensive. It would have been great to have some of the ridiculous property taxes that I paid to have gone toward my kids' education. Instead, I paid my property taxes and paid tuition. My tax money didn't do anything to further my children's education. I realize that it was purely my choice...but it still would have been nice.
Now, 3 out of 4 of my children are attending a charter academy here in ID. It's an awesome school.-
Did you try public education? Or were you just totally turned off by prior experiences? I am glad you found a school where you kids are finding success!
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Sorry for the late reply. I attended public school K-12. My wife attended public school up until the 3rd grade and then graduated from a private school. We both attended a private college (that's where we met).
The public schools where we were living were not acceptable. We had friends with kids older than ours and they were having a terrible time with the schools. So, we just chose to avoid the entire problem. It was a good choice for our family. It was expensive, but in the long run, my kids really excelled there. -
Thanks for the response. I am glad you were able to provide your kids with a stable education. I wish there was a quick fix for all the problems of public education, but I fear there is not.
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No, I don't. I think there are better ways to fix the system. One is to change how public schools are funded. Property values aren't working.-
What would you suggest? I am not criticizing your statement, just curious as to what you think would be a better alternative. With the cost of everything going up, I think we are all going to be in deep trouble shortly!
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Whatweneed, above made an excellent suggestion. Every child has X amount of dollars asigned to him or her. Where the child goes, the money goes.
We could do away with mill levies on properties (yes, that's crazy talk!) and perhaps go to a sales tax. Maybe? Or property tax stays, but all funds go into a giant kitty, instead of to the neighborhood school. -
This is something that Utah was planning to do, and was voted down by the public. The concern again, is that we would be taking money from schools that are already struggling!
Something to think about though, I agree!
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Do you agree that public monies should be given to families to attend private/religious schools?
ABSOLUTELY
Public education is the most dangerous problem facing the United States. First, we fail to educate our children well enough. Second, we empty all our bank accounts paying education taxes, that cannot be lowered, because education laws will not allow it. 80% of the public education costs are for teachers' and principals' salaries. Teacher and Principal unions write most of the nation's education laws, through the lobbying efforts of the NEA and AFT. These laws create education requirements that give the teachers job security, but do not secure an adequate education for our children.
Therefore, vouchers are in order.
Public education in America today is a pitiful institution. How can we hope to continue being a great nation when we are a bunch intellectual knuckleheads?-
"80% of the public education costs are for teachers' and principals' salaries"
I am just curious as to what the money SHOULD be spent on? Don't other companies spend a huge portion of their income on salaries and buildings, etc? I guess I don't understand why this is a factor in your thoughts.
Next, your statement:
"Public education in America today is a pitiful institution. How can we hope to continue being a great nation when we are a bunch intellectual knuckleheads?"
And my question that follows is what are YOU doing to help your local schools? Are you volunteering? Are you running for offices that allow you to start to improve the areas you feel are failing? Please don't be a critic that sits on the sidelines and spouts the failures of our current system and not do what you can to help make changes for the better.
I hope you don't think for a minute that as teachers we want what is best for the kids that in some instances we spend more time with than their own parents. That as teachers we don't spend our summers looking for ways to improve what happened last year. We care and want to educate ALL children. I just wish ALL students wanted to be educated!
I guess my only hang-up on vouchers is (as stated above) that not every child has the chance to have choice. Here where I live and teach, we have ONE elementary and ONE high school. I think they are good schools, and we work hard to ensure the kids are learning. But these students will never have the chance for "choice". How is that fair?
Another point with public education is that some parents feel that teachers are their "free" babysitters. The kids go home to empty homes because both parents are working or simply aren't interested in their childs education. It hard to go to the school or teacher and accuse them of failure of all students when in reality, and studies have proven, that parents play a HUGE part in a child's education. -
And why should it be surprising that the bulk of educational expenses go toward paying the millions of people who educate our children? The state of Texas alone has approximately 279,000 teachers, not including thousands of classroom aides, librarians, etc.
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But, John, the fact is that for a huge number of children, parents DON'T play a huge role in a child's education and aren't going to. That's wrong, of course (although when you're dealing with a single parent working two jobs just to keep a roof over the kids' heads, it's tough to see exactly HOW she might play a "huge role"), but it is what it is and that leaves schools and educators with a choice: they can focus on the fact that it shouldn't be their responsibility, or they can focus on what they can do to make the best of a bad situation and give the kids what they can. It sounds like you're one of the latter, but we need a lot more of that, because without it we end up with a situation in which only those kids who already have a leg up (in terms of having involved parents who are active in their lives) are going to get what they need from their education.
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I guess your right when you say it that way. I am resigned to the fact that most parents in this area where I live simply won't ever be involved in their childs education. And it adds extra worry, stress, and work to my day. Is it worth it? 100% yes! I became a teacher for this very reason- to make a difference. But you have a point- I realize this will never be enough to give them the same advantage as other kids in more affluent schools with more involved parents. And this is where I struggle with what to do next- we do need more support. After school programs, etc. It is really almost overwhelming to think about!
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you are not interested in my answers. You are interested in obfuscating the facts that reflect poorly on your profession.
Don't take it so personally! lol.. My profession is in the toilet too, IT. We had the world's attention with Y2K, and we blew it, by not handling it more discretely, scaring everyone unnecessarily.
And people have complaints about lawyers, which to me, is one of the most noble professions.
Teachers fail to realize, you are employees of parents. Unfortunately, some states, like the one where I grew up, had constitutional discrepancies with this principle, via concepts like, "fair education for everyone". The problem with that high-sounding principle is it undermines parents.
Teachers like to blame parents, the way workers like to blame management. The only difference is regular, non-government working parents, don't have time to deal with the blizzard of paperwork and process created specifically to control parents. Teachers' unions hire psychologists and consultants to develop programs for managing parents, and it's not for the parents' or the students' best interests this is done.
What am I doing about it right now? I am putting out the word you are reading now. -
LOL, I don't know that I agree with not listening to you. And I didn't feel I was trying to avoid the facts that relfect "poorly" on my profession. I am a teacher. I have heard it all, believe me.
I don't blame parents for my successes or failures. I simply think that so much is left for teachers to deal with that isn't truly "education" and should be dealt with at home, that we, as teachers, have little time left to actually teach!
I also agree that our entire economy is on the verge of disaster. Interesting thoughts on what has been established to "control" parents. I have never felt that way before. But I can see how someone might think that. It is almost funny now that you say that. I don't agree, but I can see your point of view.
I do appreciate your insight- thanks!
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For me it depends on the area where you live and the current state of the public and private schools. For example, where I am located right now all of the public schools in our area are rated very high, much higher than the private schools. If I was in a different area where the public schools aren't that great, I would be more inclined for private. We bought our house w/schools, price, more sq footage in mind as our determining factors.-
You could use your voucher to support your great local schools.
Meanwhile, if your neighbor hates the local schools, for reasons of their own, they could elect another option.
Do you feel your neighbors should have no economic liberty in this? What if they dispute the high rating of your local schools, based on minority beliefs? -
Sure, MisterDog. Let's give them "economic liberty" about everything--we won't fund police or fire departments, for instance...just give everyone a few thousand dollars and they can buy their own security (and fire trucks). And what's up with this whole depriving people of their economic liberty by having city water?
What's the difference? -
I like the idea of school vouchers, but the teachers need A LOT more say in what happens in their classrooms.
I don't think bashing the teachers or the teachers unionis helping anything. If it wasn't for the teacher's union, teachers wouldn't be paid squat. Heck, they aren't paid squat now!
None of this means squat without parental involvement.
And while we are at it, standerdized tests are a sham. -
So funny, dlowe! I was just about to comment in the other thread, where you asked yesterday if I was following you, that you hadn't given me much to disagree with today. And then I come over here...
Standardized tests are brilliant. The majority of the population thinks they're a sham or irrelevant because most people have no understanding of what it is that they're trying to test and thus does not understand why they are formulated the way that they are.
And this troubles me a lot: "None of this means squat without parental involvement." If you don't have good parents, there's nothing we can do for you? I don't accept that. It's a lot harder, certainly, but children of bad parents do excel in school and beyond with the right mentoring. -
LOL, you are always on my tail. That is why I added you as a friend.
Yeah but schools can turn into test factories. As a father of a grade school kid in the great state of Texas, I hear complaints from teachers and students alike about the testing.
Honestly my kids learn alot more at home than they do at school. If your kids learn more at school than home you got problems. -
"If your kids learn more at school than home you got problems."
That is an interesting statement. What exactly do you mean by that? -
same here...We built our house with number one priority being the school system. Everything else came second.
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We're sending our son to a local private school - but the public schools here aren't a bad option at all either. It just so happens to conform with our religious beliefs, has a solid reputation, and is the same school that one of our friends/neighbors teaches at - not to mention many of his neighborhood friends also will be attending.
Our choice isn't to be seen then as a referendum of any sorts on Public Schools. I attended Public School, my mother is a career long librarian/teacher and member of my hometown board of education.
I tend to think what's happening at home plays a large role no matter where you go.-
Thanks for your thoughts. Glad to hear education has been a part of your life. Good to see parens involved!
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Right now, my children attend a Magnet school that is open to all children in our school district. For the record, we live in a high-poverty area of Illinois, and the State funds its school primarily through local property taxes. The result? Rich areas get much better facilities and teachers. Poorer areas have to struggle. In our own district, there are several schools on the NCLB watch list.
I like being able to 'select' the Magnet school as an option for my child (even though entrance is gained by submitting an application and being chosen by lottery). Because the school operates outside the traditional system, administrators have a good deal of leeway to run things as they choose. A priority for the school has been, from its inception, to create a teacher-parent partnership whereby parents must sign a contract each year to give 26 hours of volunteer service to the school. The result: the school can do more with less and tends to draw interest from families that are dedicated to helping their child succeed.
My husband and I are both products of public education and I have the highest regard for teachers. I think they are underappreciated and certainly many are underpaid.
But, are vouchers the answer, even in a school system as stressed as our local district? I don't think so -- not if they are planning to include religious schools. There are too many blurry lines where religious teaching will be funded by public money. I don't want my tax dollars going to have someone teaching about God. That is not the job of the state. And what happens when a private school tells a child they aren't good enough to get in? What kind of discrimination issues will there be?
If vouchers mean that students can choose from among area public schools and that public schools are encouraged to specialize or lean toward a particular type of curriculum (i.e. going to the science high school vs. the high school for literature and the arts), I'm all for it. But when you add in the religious aspect -- well, I just think it's a can of worms we don't want to open.-
Well said. I like the idea of vouchers only being used for public schools. I also really like that you agree to give the school a set amount of hours as parents. I would have to think that it would create a wonderful working relationship between the teachers and parents, and show the students that parents do care. I do think that maybe having school specialize is a great idea. Not all kids want to go to college, and having a school that is geared more to the vocational side of life is a great thing for them. But I also worry what would happen if that were the case in my town with only ONE high school.
I appreciate your thoughts and insight! -
We live in a city of about 35,000. There is a large-ish private high school and several smaller private schools with those grades -- all have a religious affiliation. There is one large public high school and surrounding towns each have their own high schools.
I agree that specialization would be difficult, if one were to just include the public schools. Maybe rural places (like us) would have to move to a more regional concept of secondary education. We already have an "alternative education" site in our local area for those at the jr. high and high school level who have difficulty succeeding in the traditional classroom setting.
I forgot to mention yesterday a really important reason I am not a fan of including private schools in a voucher system -- that is that it takes public money *away* from public institutions. If funding is divided up per child, struggling schools will find themselves in even worse financial straits. In my view, more would be gained by paying teachers more and reducing class sizes. And the teacher-parent partnership should be something pursued across the board.
I wrote about it on my politics blog in June because vouchers are central to John McCain's education platform. Here's the link:
ilfamilypolitics.blogspot.com/2008/06/pursuing-equity-in-education.html
Thanks for asking this question, by the way. It is interesting for me to hear a variety of perspectives on this. -
One more thing -- our elementary school runs on balanced calendar and has the highest test scores in the area.
Two more reasons to support 1) the magnet school concept and 2)a mandate for a high level of parent involvement in a "school of choice".
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i Souport publik edekasion-
Was that meant to be funny?
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I've studied in a private school before as I lived in foreign country at the time. I think it was for 2 years. However I was still a kid hence I do not exactly remember much about the private school's system. But I do remember my naughty stuff that I did in that school at the time (evil me, evil me).
Anyway I think it's better for kids to study in a public school. It's a good social exposure for your kids. Private schools (at least in here) are for the elitist hence they don't get the chance to mix and blend socially.
Must ... go ... to ... sleep ... 2.04 am ... already.
Regards,
JJ-
Thanks for the thoughts. I agree that most kids need the social interaction a public school can provide. But there are times when I see what kids (especially at the secondary level) are doing and think, "Do I really want my kids to be apart of this?" Anyways, thanks for sharing!
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Thanks for all the great comments! Seems there are alot of ideas about education and what needs to be fixed and HOW to fix it. To bad nobody asks us! LOL
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Any last thoughts before the discussion ends up on page page 435? LOL
Thanks for everyone who chose to share! -
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