Discussions
'Pro-Islamic' Ads in NYC Subways - Good Idea, I Think
Posted by Norski • 7/22/08 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Tags: Advertising, america, Islam, Marketing, muslim, New York City
Of course, I could be wrong.
You've probably heard: An Islamic group has an ad campaign that will be in New York City subways this September. They're promoting an informative website about Islam.
Since they're Muslims, the website's stance is pro-Islam. And, what I read of it, quite sensible.
My post on the topic: "Pro-Islamic Ads Coming to New York City Subways: There's a Real Danger Here, of Becoming Informed" anotherwaronterrorblog.blogspot.com/2008/07/pro-islamic-ads-coming-to-new-y...
Clearly, I think this campaign is a good idea.
How many BlogCatalogers have heard or read about this campaign? (The shameless blog promotion part of this is that I can use some feedback - the good-Blogcataloger part is that I think some of us would be interested in the websites, the ad campaign, or something related to either.)
Disclaimer - this is a drive-by posting. I expect to be busy for a few hours, then to be asleep.
User Comments
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I disagree that this religion is peaceful (according to your opinion on your blog). Read from the source, the Koran. Wake up folks, there is a religious war happening in more ways than one. Those who claim it is anything less than a violent religion have not been fully informed.-
The Koran is interpreted and believed by many sect of Islam in their own way, Some group reject the Jihad. They say Jihad is to kill the enemy inside themself not other human. -
@Globalgirl: A literal reading of the Koran as *you* understand it does not constitute the only possible interpretation of Islam. (Ditto the Bible and Christianity, by the way.) Any "religious war" happening is being stoked by the ignorance of each side about the other. Fortunately, many people choose religious pluralism and a broader understanding of Islam than the literalists offer us.
@Norski: Obviously such PR campaigns are necessary in order to fight hatred and fear based on ignorance. Thanks for bringing this up. I still need to check out your long blog post in detail. -
"Any "religious war" happening is being stoked by the ignorance of each side about the other. " Yeah, its all good fun till someone rams an airplane into a building. -
Those were ignorant bigots. You cannot concede to those terrorists the exclusive rights of interpretation on a major world religion.
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I agree that this religion is peaceful (according to your opinion on your blog). Read from the source, the Koran. Wake up folks, there is a religious smear war happening. Those who claim Islam is anything other than a peaceful religion have not been fully informed.
Which means that Islamic extremists are not fully informed about their own religion.
Much as some Christian extremists are not fully informed about their own religion as well.
edit:
Hopefully, the ads will help combat the bad feelings and bigotry instead of fanning the flames. *sigh* -
OMG and you call yourself global girl, sweetie thats like saying everyone from South America is a cocaine dealer. -
markstoneman,
Pretty good point - I want to emphasize part of it. You said "ignorant bigots." You're probably right. One of the things that made the 9/11 attack, and the London/Glasgow attacks, stand out from pre-9/11 terrorist incidents was that the perpetrators were, quite a few of them, 'educated' in the conventional, formal, sense. -
Muslim Extremists are no more peaceful or dangerous than the Extremist practitioners of any other religion; regardless of the scripture. -
So is Christianity and Judaism; you only have to read the Bible to come to that conclusion:
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."
--Deuteronomy 13:13-19
The fact of the matter is that violent cultists are getting all the attention and the vast, vast majority of peaceful Muslims are getting the shaft. It's like judging Christianity by Jonestown -- it's tremendously unfair.
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@dlowe
We cannot blame the religion or the whole people that practice Islam. Do not forget the crusade too.-
There was dancing in the streets after the towers fell in much of the arab world.
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@dlowe
See! i can see the same thing in you, if iam not wrong. -
Crusades were hundreds of years ago. Since then I don't think a Christian group has flown any planes into any buildings. I love how people who claim to be so modern and enlightened use the crusades as their sword to slash at Christianity. That sword is rusty.
My comment was directed at "Any "religious war" happening is being stoked by the ignorance of each side about the other. "
You see, us as non-muslims did not pick the fight. The terrorists did. If the terrorists are in the minotiry, the rest of the good muslims need to stand up against them. Do you see this happening? The silence from the muslim world is deafening. -
Terrorist has no religion. They play policy and many foolish youth fall to it
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I heard some terrorist teach that those who practice jihad(eg suicide bomber)will get 12(not sure about the Nos.) virgin in heaven. And many people most young believe. Isn't this ignorant?
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It's crusades. Plural. And, if I remember correctly, they started out as an effort to re-establish access to pilgrimage sites in the Middle East.
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What religion did Timothy McVeigh belong to by the way?-
Church of the Turner Diaries.
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Norski, I submitted this to Reddit. Unfortunately, I'm too technologically inept to figure out how to provide a direct link, but here is the link to the comments page for the submission (a good one for this group, anyway, since everyone seems to have something to say about this...)
www.reddit.com/info/6swnx/comments/-
I think you can like or dislike it by following this link, not really sure though.
www.reddit.com/goto?id=6swnx -
MadameX,
Thanks. I'll follow up on this in the next 24 hours or so. -
That link is perfect. You can vote from there. I did. Votie, votie, votie folks.
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Terrorist has no religion. They play policy and many foolish youth fall to it
Weblogian u r right!-
Thanks, for ur agreement
They don have borders too. That's the danger of it.
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I wonder if anyone here ever stepped into a Mosque, or have a Qur'an.
I own one and I know all I need to know about Islam and the different sects of it.
I only pray that this campaign changes attitudes on both sides. I don't plan on wearing a Burka.-
I have a Qur'an, and one of my daughters had a very pleasant and informative time in a mosque. I haven't had the experience myself.
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Norski, when I think about Islam, I think about everything. The good and the bad. Like in Christianity.
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Glad to hear it, zawadi. Knowledge is good, thinking is good.
What a person does with them: that's where it can get sticky.
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Addressing a point that's come up in these comments - I think it's a good idea to remember that Islam is not a strictly religion of the House of Saud, or even limited to the Middle East.
The largest Islamic country in the world is Indonesia - and the sort of Islam practiced there isn't Al Qaeda's. I've posted about this off and on, recently in "Will the Real Islam, Please Stand Up?" ( anotherwaronterrorblog.blogspot.com/2008/02/will-real-islam-please-stand-up... )-
"The largest Islamic country in the world is Indonesia - and the sort of Islam practiced there isn't Al Qaeda's."
www.indonesia-ottawa.org/information/details.php?type=news_copy&id=2206
www.cdi.org/terrorism/sea.cfm
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1705861.stm
www.cfr.org/publication/9361/
www.csmonitor.com/2002/0501/p01s04-woap.html
edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/03/20/gen.indon.alqaeda/
Where you find Islam you find Al Qaeda. -
dlowe,
A clarification: Al Qaeda-associated groups are attacking Indonesia. If being targeted by Al Qaeda makes a country a home to Al Qaeda, then America is as much a home to Al Qaeda, as far as I can tell, as Indonesia is.
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It's time for a pro-atheist subway campaign.
Ever heard of atheists flying an aeroplane into a building? Or embarking on crusades? Me neither.-
No, just pushing eugenics and trying to shut down services provided by religious orginizations.
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Voluntary. Do you know what voluntary means? It means nobody is forced.
"Thou shalt keep your religion to yourself"- George Carlin. -
I am not talking about religion. I am talking about sick individuals thinking they can "improve" the world through breeding.
Yeah, quote George Carlin. He sure was know to be a happy, fulfilled man. -
"I am not talking about religion. I am talking about sick individuals thinking they can "improve" the world through breeding."
Ahhh ... perhaps you are aware of the evangelicals from which I escaped. They also think they can improve the world by breeding. They encourage marriage only between those within the sect. They don't believe in birth control. They believe Jesus wants as many little Christian soldiers as possible on the planet. -
Sounds cult like to me. Doesn't sound like what I am into. No wonder you come in here and bash Christianity. Sorry you experienced that and wasted all those years studying it. I hope you found some use for all of that education besides coming into discussions and, you know, bashing Christians.
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Why are you name calling? I'm not "bashing" anyone.
Why do you assume my years of study were wasted? -
If an idea (Christianity in this case) cannot withstand the criticism, then it's not a good idea.
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I didn't call anyone a name. You've bashed plenty.
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It's not bashing, it's criticizing.
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In essence, you called me a "basher" of Christians. Setting that mean spirited remark aside I take the position that Christian beliefs are open to criticism just as any other beliefs are.
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Do you bash Christians?
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Of course not, my life is full of Christians. They are my family - both sides. I debate scripture and interpretation of it with them. I'm well versed in scripture, hermeneutics and exegesis just as they are. What prompted me to begin to post to religious threads was the obvious ignorance that was displayed by those who called themselves Christians but did not seem to be possessed of any historical context.
Specifically, there is no basis in scripture to think God is on anyone's side in any war. Scripture clearly indicates that believers are intended to be on God's side [think about it because the inversion has serious consequences to those of faith].
There is ZERO support found in New Testament teachings for hatred and violence. The gospel message is peace, compassion, forgiveness and loving one's neighbor as one love's one's self. The New Testament cannot be correctly used to justify killing of any kind, even in self defence. That's what initiated my posting. -
Then I apologize. Sorry Timethief. I had you mistaken with someone esle aperantly.
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Maybe just a difference in terminology. Some people consider language like "brainwashed and pathetic" to be bashing.
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It's aggressive rhetoric, but bashing only occurs when the facts aren't on the side of the basher. At least, that's my understanding of the topic.
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@MadameX
Hey, if she says she doesn't bas Christains who are we to say she doesn't? -
Actually, Christianity is cult and sect like by definition.
Cult: followers of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices. Since Christians believe Jesus is the only way, Christianity is a cult.
Sect: generally a small religious or political group that has broken off from a larger group, for example from a large, well-established religious group, like a denomination, usually due to a dispute about doctrinal matters. Can you say Protestants?
George Carlin made a valid point. Why should it be necessary for any religion to do a PR campaign? If everyone kept their religion to themselves, there wouldn't be a need to clean up the image of any cult. -
@flaming poodle
"Actually, Christianity is cult and sect like by definition."
Agreed. -
Do you bash Christians?
Only part-time. -
I take the position that Christian beliefs are open to criticism just as any other beliefs are.
Exactly Timethief. If your beliefs are based on anything worthwhile, you won't get uppity about them. They will withstand scrutiny and if they don't, they aren't useful.
I'm an equal opportunity religion basher. Except for Cthulhu. -
"I take the position that Christian beliefs are open to criticism just as any other beliefs are."
Me too. Of course, I would never tell anyone of any faith (or lack thereof) that he was pathetic and delusional. That's not a criticism--it's just nastiness that says more about the speaker than it does about the belief system in question. -
I sincerely believe that we are all delusional and I have said that many times over here. I also sincerely believe that it's pathetic that religious people refuse to entertain, let alone, examine the possibility that we are deluded. I also take the position that I cannot offend anyone, who does not choose to give me permission to offend them.
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I'm not sure who said anything about being offended. As I said, I think the nature of the comments says much more about the speaker than it does about the subject at hand or about the target of the comments.
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If you are not offended, then your persistence in this matter certainly speaks volumes about your nature.
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MadameX,
"...I would never tell anyone of any faith (or lack thereof) that he was pathetic and delusional...."
Didn't you know that everybody knows that Christians are all pathetic and delusional? When they're not bloodthirsty and oppressive, of course.
Oh, well - that's the contemporary culture.
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Having earned a little bit of personal experience with the Islamic culture, having lived in the middle east region for a bit, I can say that it's not "as peaceful" as it's being made out to be by various organizations.
Even some of the more "moderate" regions are less than sympathetic to western civilization. The populace of Kuwait for example, (which is one of the most moderate areas in the area) when we were liberating it from Saddam during Desert Storm/Shield, had a "barely tolerable" view towards us. And we were there to help them.
As it stands, there are estimated to be 1.5 billion muslims throughout the world. (Give or take a few million, depending on what source you use.) If even a measley 10% of that number are sympathetic to the "so-called extremist views," thats still approximately 150 million people around the world living up to the terroristic jihadi stereotype. Or roughly half the population of all of America alone.
If you also consider that many of the biggest Islamic "outreach" organizations, have either been indicted as co-conspirators in terrorist funding, like CAIR has in the Holyland Foundation Trials. Or are trying to have the international human rights accord become subserviant to Sharia Law, like the OIC is currently attempting to do in the UN, it sheds a less than favorable light on a theocratical culture.
Were as, in western civilizations, we eventually "get over our self riteousness" in one way or another and start correcting our wrongs, such as the slavery issue, suffrage, etc. The Islamic culture has changed little if any in the way of human rights in the last 1400 years. I don't believe I really need to recount the many endless tellings of women having been raped, and then stoned to death for it, because they "deserved it". Honor killings of wives/siblings just because they dishonored the family name. All of which has been in effect pretty much since Islam's inception all those years ago. As for slavery, I still find it hysterical that blacks, (or African Americans, which ever they wish to be known as this week) flip over to Islam, when the slave trade was many times worse heading to the middle east, than to England or the Americas.
As for the Crusade's, they originally began as a last ditch response, after several decades worth of onslaught by Islam into Europe and other regions where Christians were subjugated under a "convert or die" mentality. Some managed to escape death under dhimmitude conditions. (But that's a whole nother topic.) The Islamic armies had reached clear into Austria, before a response was finally mustered. The first several Crusades were to drive the Turks and other invaders "back to" the middle east regions. Yes, the later Crusade's were self serving if anything. But they were first, purely for survival.
As westerners, we DO have our faults. But we also try to fix what we broke most of the time. Try to atone for what we beak in some way. Sometimes, it just doesn't work out, no matter what we do. But if you consider that we also aren't indoctrinating kids via a Farfur the jihadi Mickey Mouse, to "hate & kill" infidels, and strive to become suicide bombers, I'd say we aren't doing to bad as a culture.-
I don't know where to begin with all of this, except that much of it is ahistorical. If you're going to make such far-reaching claims about so many things in the past, you're going to have to back them up with reputable sources. History as you tell it does not ring true. To take but one small example, the "Turks" of which you speak came on the scene a few centuries *after* the first Crusade.
I also note conflation of religion per se with people who have practiced it. You're not the only one to do that here. -
Okay, here are but a few sources of the myriad available. As for the term "reputable," it's a matter of perspective. I consider HuffPo and DailyKOS to be without merit, period. Whilst others pray daily to Arriana the Great. So take the links with a grain of salt.
Muslim Populace:
tinyurl.com/2h4xh5
Terroristic Sympathizing:
tinyurl.com/6ysvrd
CAIR Co-Conspirator:
tinyurl.com/6zunwt
tinyurl.com/3dg5yz
OIC Defamation/Sharia push:
tinyurl.com/6ruh9h
tinyurl.com/6zzdpq
tinyurl.com/6bo8eb
tinyurl.com/5a7bpo
Human Rights:
tinyurl.com/5qxm3z
tinyurl.com/2wx4t5
tinyurl.com/6exjh8
tinyurl.com/5owa3x
Honor Killings:
tinyurl.com/3h1s
tinyurl.com/3dgr2u
tinyurl.com/3fkjnx
The Slavery Issue:
tinyurl.com/6rqhl9
tinyurl.com/64rqsf
The Crusades: And yes, you are actually correct for once Mark, it wasn't the turks at the onset, I was thinking of something else at the moment. It was the MOHAMMEDEAN tribes, along with the Byzantine empire. It wasn't until about 1009 that an egyptian (Moslem as they were known then) Caliph started kicking up crap, like destroying the Holy Sepulchre and abusing the Christians, that the pilgrimage forays "into" the Holy Lands started to really come under fire.
The Seljukian Turks which I was thinking of, didnt really come into play until about the early 1070's. And it wasn't until 1095 (after several years of pilgrims being persecuted by those turks) that Pope Urban II actually got the Crusades under way. But by then, the "turks" had already taken a considerable portion of what then was considered Christian lands. Of which, was what Urban II used to rally the armies to him. That's when the reclamation aspect came into play. Well AFTER the Turks had be come involved.
But you can read all the details here:
tinyurl.com/25stp
I'll wager a small bit of hope here that, that historical ring you mentioned, will now ring true to you. -
I wish you had included the original URLs here. Makes it easier to remember what is what. Pretty eclectic mix, which is not necessarily a bad thing. The only history source I see is for the Crusades, and I was talking history. The one you offer is from the online Catholic encyclopedia. That source provides a highly specific point of view that absolutely cannot stand alone when trying to understand the Crusades. I realize many are loathe to go beyond online sources and read books, but for the kind of sweeping historical statements you're making, maybe they would be helpful?
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I think that a point needs to be made again.
Whatever the House of Saud may think, Islam is not a wholly-owned subsidiary of the rulers of Saudi Arabia. At least, quite a few Muslims seem to see it that way.
Westerners quite naturally tend to see Islam as a belief system specifically and exclusively linked to the Middle East. Yes, Islam originated there, and yes, the House of Saud currently owns the land that many Islamic holy sites stand on.
But Islam is, by now a global religion. Not an Arab religion, not a middle eastern religion - except by origin. -
(sigh) As expected, source attack. Shocked and amazed here.... Re-visit it please and refer to the literary works that the historical record is compiled from. Those will be actual books listed there.
To save some time, here is the direct link to the source/biblio page;
tinyurl.com/6r6gc7
Then again, when you consider the "white washing" that certain events and such have been undergoing over the last several years (denial of the holocaust, multiple moon landings, islamic history) in something as basic as students textbooks, it would be difficult to refer to anything recent as being credible, don't you think?
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I'm a NYC resident and had no idea. With all the culture that is in nYC, this will hardly cause a stir. So what?-
I'm sure you didn't know about this. My guess is that very few New Yorkers do. The ad campaign doesn't launch until September 2008.
The only reason I knew about The Subway Project is that I make it my business to nose around issues like this. -
That, and CNN has been broadcasting about it for the last several days....
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So what?
Take a look at this thread. There is a great deal of, ah, negative emotion being directed toward Islam, Christianity, and religion in general.
In stark contrast, there's a group of serious Muslims who are making an effort to educate people about what Islam is, and what it isn't.
Sure, they probably won't change the world. Not overnight.
But I think that they rate some credit for trying. -
Wrong spot. Sorry.
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johnsblogs42,
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Not likely to change much of anything really, as there really isn't much to discern about islam, that we aren't already aware of. We are fully aware that "IT IS" the religion of the sword. Whether by the House of Saud, or globaly is irrelevant.
As an example that "globalized" is irrelevant in this matter, is an article from the New York Sun. Not an outlet exactly known for its high conservative content;
tinyurl.com/5eb3gp
Please note a couple items in this article. Some of the locations given, which yes, of course do list the middle east. But Indonesia? Austria? Doesn't sound like being free from restriction to the middle east makes much difference. Please also note the author, where he is the Executive Director. Personally, I could care less if he was a janitor there, but he's there.
As for religions taking heat here.. they always will in BC discussions. That's nothing new in any way/shape/form. And deserving credit. I can give ya that one, if they truly are the "moderates" they're supposing to be.
But if Islam wants a new face amongst the rest of the word, it will pretty much take that 90% unsympathetic to terrorists portion to stand up in unison, and just start beating the holy-living-allah-turds out of the 10% that's giving them the bad name.
And that's not joking either. One good deed doesn't redeem an entire theocratic cultures deeds that occurred over the course of well over a millenia.
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@norski
stumbled
"The word Jihad is from the Arabic root word JHD which basically means striving or struggle. The question is striving for what or a struggle for what? The struggle is of two types, one is inner and one is outer. Both have the same purpose which is to change the status quo - a status which is not in line with God's will or not in line with nature as such, a status which causes unrest and disturbance.
... Even those folks who rely only on external Jihad as a mission from God without having achieved inner Jihad first must ask themselves if they are at peace. There is no promise of peace for those who take the lives of the innocent thinking that they are doing a holy war which is not holy. In this regard, Muslims have a great role to play in removing misconceptions about Jihad as it prevails in the media and give its true meaning which is peaceful inner struggle."
Dr. Athar is the author of Healing the wounds of September 11, 2001 (Reflections of an American Muslim) Published October 2003 by 1stbooks in the U.S.A.
muslim-canada.org/jihadshahid.html-
Thanks for the stumble. And for taking a bit of a look at the subject at hand.
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Assuming that Islam is NOT a peaceful religion, how would their subway ads be any different from the usual old-fashioned American bull shit?
The United States of America was founded by white slave-owners who wrote, "All men are created equal." We are founded on bullshit.
Besides, teenagers have and always will use spray-paint on ads they disagree with.-
What does "old-fashioned" have to do with a PR campaign designed to foster mutual understanding across faiths and cultures? And what exactly is "the usual old-fashioned American [BS]" of which you speak?
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I edited my post to elaborate on that point before you began typing your reply, Mark. Also, I said "Assuming that Islam is NOT a peaceful religion..."
If they're not peaceful, and they're advertising themselves as peaceful, then at least they're showing that they're truly American by lying to the public. Hell, they should run for office next.
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The area I live in has a large Muslim population and conducted a similar billboard and transit bus advertising campaign last year...
At the end of the day it was just a collossal waste of money and no blood was shed...
For the amount of money the Muslim's spent advertising it would have been much more effective had they used the money to feed the poor or plant trees etc. to show the Muslim Community cares about the multi-cultural communities they live in...They would have received more positive media coverage actually doing some thing positive...
You cannot advertise your way into a community...You must sincerely want to become part of the community and make an effort to do so...
Same thing regarding New York...
Who is the Muslim's marketing/advertising/public relations/director ? The jackass politician the Iranians recently sent to the U.S.A who spoke at a prominent University ?
It would be far more effective to feed the poor in New York in honor of the 911 victims etc. than to cut down trees for billboards etc...-
Wow Gerry, I think this might be the one time I ever say this to you so I am going to word it very carefully and put alot of thought into my choice of words:
That is the most intelligent, common sense response on this whole thread. It made TONS of sense, it was sincere and even gave a good alternative solution. -
I agree, to an extent. If suddenly Muslims were doing that "in the name of 911 victims," it would draw them unnecessary criticism. However, the gesture would be good.
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I think anyone doing good is doing good. Period.
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Speaking of the few Muslims I know: I doubt that they are about to take up arms over anything. They are no more militant than your average Christian, but they do provide lots of support for their community. The catch is you have to be Muslim to benefit.
One Muslim girl I knew got a full bursary from her community to study to become a gynaecologist. They believe that only a female doctor may inspect a female, and only with a mirror. Anyway, she is a poor girl from a poor family and got a full bursary because the community needed more doctors. -
Couldn't the same be said of PR efforts by Christian denominations?
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As a New Yorker I think it is a great idea. One specific group of people should not be condemned because of the actions of a few. -
@MadameX
She knows what she has said. If she says she didn't bash anyone, then, well... -
Over 1,672 killed and 2,554 injured in just two months. Islam, the religion of peace? It's a good thing they're not a religion of violence.
www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks-
Islam = Murders who kill in the name of Islam?
Really? I thought we'd already addressed this logical fallacy above.
Edited to add: this kind of stuff plays into the worldview of such killers, many of whom would like to get a proper war of civilization going. No thank you. (I qualified my statement with "many", since we don't know the motives behind all these killings, which occur in concrete local contexts. I am loathe to accept the motives ascribed to them by a clearly bigoted website.) -
That's like saying that Christianity "causes" people to shoot doctors and bomb abortion clinics. Those are crazy Christians and the cause isn't Christianity, the cause is insanity. The same for Islam. Most Muslims aren't terrorists -- if Islam really were a religion of violence, it'd be a massive failure at inciting violence.
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@mark, I researched a number of those killings and they are referenced in other news sites, such as BBC and others. I think the facts speaks for themselves. I know there are good Muslims, their religion has been hijacked by a tremendous number of idiots who are killing thousands of people all in the name of Islam. Maybe, just maybe, if we heard more and saw more "good" Muslims condemning these killings, the world would have a different opinion. Instead we see the the Middle East and the Muslim world rejoice in the release of a murderer who crushed a four year old little girls head in to some rocks.
@Wisco, You say "Most Muslims aren't terrorists" but I think it is safe to say most Terrorists are Muslim... In addition, your comparison with Christianity is really weak... When was the last time you saw or heard of a group of Christians beheading someone or blowing-up a bus, or market killing women and children? Get a clue... -
Wisco, You say "Most Muslims aren't terrorists" but I think it is safe to say most Terrorists are Muslim...
It's not safe to say that at all. Are FARC, the IRA, Basque Separatists, the Tamil Tigers, etc. all Muslim? That'd be news to them.
When was the last time you saw or heard of a group of Christians beheading someone or blowing-up a bus, or market killing women and children?
I see, if it happens at an abortion clinic, it's not terrorism. It's -- I don't know -- mischief or something.
Get a clue...
You first. -
Wisco,
Ok, let me break it down for you. The word "most" greatest in quantity, extent, or degree. I know there are other terrorist groups who are not Muslim. I did not say "ALL", I said most.
As for your abortion clinic comment. Yes it is terrorism, but again you are trying to compare the local pee-wee football team to the NFL... How often do we hear about a Christians, Jews, Atheists, LDS, Buddhist, Jehovah Witness, etc. doing some the same deeds on such a reoccurring basis? You can read about radical muslim terrorist killing or blowing something up just about everyday!
Bomb for Bomb, body for body, I doubt there is any other active terrorist groups who have run up the body count like radical muslim terrorists. -
But that doesn't give 'em a monopoly on interpreting Islam. Nor does it negate the potential value of such a PR campaign. Makes it necessary, is more like it.
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Ok, let me break it down for you. The word "most" greatest in quantity, extent, or degree. I know there are other terrorist groups who are not Muslim. I did not say "ALL", I said most.
And I say you have absolutely no evidence of that.
As for your abortion clinic comment. Yes it is terrorism, but again you are trying to compare the local pee-wee football team to the NFL... How often do we hear about a Christians, Jews, Atheists, LDS, Buddhist, Jehovah Witness, etc. doing some the same deeds on such a reoccurring basis? You can read about radical muslim terrorist killing or blowing something up just about everyday!
How many wars are we fighting in Christian, Jewish, Atheist, LDS, Buddhist, Jehovah Witness, etc. countries? You're judging the world by what you're seeing on that there teevee machine. The world's a lot bigger than that.
Bomb for Bomb, body for body, I doubt there is any other active terrorist groups who have run up the body count like radical muslim terrorists.
Your doubt isn't as convincing as some sort of fact might be. Got any? -
Wisco,
I posted a link that provided a detailed list of all the killing committed by Islamic terrorists. I know you will probably just discount the link because it states things you disagree with or don't believe.
However, if you check the list against other sources, you will find it to be accurate. The site is not the source of the data, only the consolidator & presenter of the data. Feel free to do your own research and provide your facts that prove my "doubt" wrong.
Facts go both ways... I provided a position and sited a source. You provided the typical "Politically Correct" response. So do you have any facts? How about just doing a search on Google for Islamic Killings or maybe Honor Killings... Then compare that to one of the other terrorist groups you mentioned...
The preliminary data I have collected supports my hypothesis. -
The preliminary data suggests that people—not a religion—killed people. That they did so in the name of Islam only means that they don't understand it, or understand it in a highly selective manner.
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@mark,
No argument from me on your first point. People kill, not objects, concepts, believes, etc... However, there are two issues in play here. One is the hi-jacking of Islam by thousands of idiots. The other, is the "appearance" of Muslims to tolerate the hi-jacking of their religion.
The teaching of "hate" in so called mainstream Muslim schools paints another very grim picture to the world, also. The school there in Fairfax county has run it this very issue.
Combine these issues with the killings and it does not look as if Islam is such a "Religion of Peace" -
Who the hell said that Muslim extremists don't kill people? What you said is that they kill the most. Your "evidence" of this is a big long list of crimes by Muslims compared with jack.
You haven't proved a damned thing. -
Wisco,
You are hopeless... If you are not able to see the correlation between a group claiming affiliation to Islam and the lack of Muslims condemning those actions, then you win.
As I said to Mark, Islam was hi-jacked by thousands of idiots. The Muslim community has not come out very strong condemning that hi-jacking. At least not from what I have seen or studied. Passively setting back and not doing anything is the same as condoning those actions. You know the old phrase "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" Well that is what I'm seeing from Islam.
My list of "terrorist murders" is being put forth as evidence to my claim that most "TERRORISTS" are Muslim. This provides at least some independent source of information for you to review. Check them out and you will find that they all say Islamic terrorists, radical Muslims or something along that line.
However, again you have no facts only PC BS. -
LOL! When was the last time you "condemned" a Christian for committing a crime? Do you do it every single time? Somehow, I doubt it -- that'd be pretty much all you spent your life doing.
I gave a URL in another thread, but I'll drop it here, too. There's this new thing called "asking people what they think." Oddly, it has nothing to do with stand alone lists of crimes compared with nuthin'.
Turns out that Muslims aren't big fans of terrorism. Go figure. And the difference between you and me is that I can prove what I say:
"Major survey challenges Western perceptions of Islam," Agence France-Presse -- tinyurl.com/356tgs
Turns out 93% of the world's Muslims aren't into terrorism, only 7% are crazy. Like I say, for a religion that fosters violence, it sure does suck at it.
Bonus fun: TIME magazine, 1974 -- www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,911602-2,00.html
In the U.S., the second largest source of I.R.A. funds after Ireland itself, increasing attention is being paid to fund-raising activities among the 12.2 million Americans of Irish descent. Government sources in Dublin estimate that various individuals and groups in the U.S. have contributed $5 million or more to the Provos' war chest since the current troubles began in Northern Ireland six years ago, even though Dublin has tried to discourage such support throughout that period. There is still widespread sympathy for the cause, and open appeals for donations are sprinkled through Irish papers in the U.S. IT'S A SAD CHRISTMAS WHEN YOUR DADDY'S IN PRISON, reads an ad in the moderate Irish Echo for Eire Nua, (New Ireland), a Provisional front.
Several Americans have been arrested on charges of making illegal arms shipments to Ulster. The most celebrated case was that of the "Fort 'Worth Five," a group of New York Irish Americans who were imprisoned in Texas during 1972 and 1973 for refusing to testify before a grand jury concerning their alleged involvement in arms traffic to Northern Ireland via Texas; eventually, they were released. This year's pro-I.R.A. martyrs include the "Baltimore Four," two Irishmen and two Irish Americans who were convicted of conspiring to smuggle 158 rifles and other materiel from New York to Ireland.
Do the math. In 1974, there were 213,854,000 Americans (tinyurl.com/6dtvj8). 12 mil is 5%. In other words, there was a time -- not too awfully long ago -- when an American was only 2% less likely to support terrorism than today's Muslim.
Clearly, being an American makes you a terrorist. -
Wisco,
I responded to your link and "poll" in the other thread. Thanks, I think it really supports my position. -
Here's a better link. I think google hates tinyurl:
afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iZlsZRgzHmgwj6sKpA7PR5F5Ecsw
I responded to your link and "poll" in the other thread. Thanks, I think it really supports my position.
That's because you're a fool. Go back and check, I left your argument a smoking ruin. -
Wisco,
Since it looks as if the powers to be, deleted the other thread, I'll respond here. To start calling me names only highlights your ignorance to the issues and indicates you can no longer have a discussion.
I would say, the only smoking ruin, is in your mind...
Your link to a poll that states 93 percent of 1.3 billion Muslims are moderate base on a poll of 50,000 certainly falls into the “so what” category. Do you really think that 50,000 is a fair and adequate representation of 1.3 billion? You are more confused then I suspected.
1. “This is specious reasoning. Having a stupid political opinion doesn't make you a terrorist.”
90,000,000 Muslims condoned the killing of innocent men, women and children. That is 90 MILLION. That came directly from the information “YOU” provided. Don’t see how that is “specious reasoning”.
2. No. Let's not. Let's not make up statistics out of biased and wishful thinking. 20% of 90 million is about 22 million -- that's an absurd number. You show me 22 million terrorist acts. The "benefit of the doubt?" Don't make me laugh.
The statistics where numbers you provided. Nothing biased or wishful about 90,000,000 Muslims condoning the killing of innocent men, women and children.
I did not say 22 million terrorist “acts”. Again, you seem to have a serious problem with the facts. I said, “That would mean about 18 million Muslims” and NOT terrorist’s acts.
The only number I “made-up” as you put it, was suggesting 20% of the 90 million could be terrorists. Regardless of what percentage you use, that is a large number of Muslims who condone killing innocent men, women and children. There is no way you can say that all 90 million just have a “stupid political opinion”. I would say that is very “wishful thinking” on your part. Oh, by the way, 20% of 90 million is 18 million on my calculator.
I’m done with this topic, have a good day. -
I don't blame you for flouncing, you're taking a rhetorical beating.
The only number I “made-up” as you put it, was suggesting 20% of the 90 million could be terrorists. Regardless of what percentage you use, that is a large number of Muslims who condone killing innocent men, women and children. There is no way you can say that all 90 million just have a “stupid political opinion”. I would say that is very “wishful thinking” on your part. Oh, by the way, 20% of 90 million is 18 million on my calculator.
Ooh! I screwed up my math! Golly, I must be completely wrong about everything!
Not that it matters, your 20% of that 90 mil is a made up number. You just picked it out of the air. It doesn't mean squat.
And let me get this straight; you're saying that every single Muslim who thought 9/11 was a good idea is a terr'ist? Way to inflate your numbers. That totality is another made up number -- just as absurd as your other one.
Yes, the fact is that if you think 9/11 was justified, you have a crazy political opinion. It's not a criminal act to think that or say that, it's just the sort of thing a loudmouth blowhard says.
Not too long ago, CNN's Glenn Beck advocated shooting all gitmo detainees "in the head" (www.crooksandliars.com/2008/07/06/glenn-beck-on-how-the-us-should-treat-git...). Does the fact that this blowhard thinks a war crime would be a good idea make him a war criminal? No. It makes him a freakin' moron. You have to actually commit a crime to be a criminal, just like you have to do some terrorism to be to actually be a terrorist.
Geez, use a little logic.
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I am not a fan of anything which creates debates on subways. If you get on a New York subway, there is enough heat and pressure just from the overcrowded cars. The subway is a place to sit and hide from your fellow passengers.-
I see your point, but from what I've seen here in BC and elsewhere, that would mean getting rid of all advertising. Have you noticed how many people simply abhor commercialism, consumerism, and capitalism?
Particularly in a city the size of New York, I'd say it's impossible to not create a debate. Even if there were no ads at all, the walls would be some color - and somebody wouldn't like it. And if a pattern of all colors were tried, somebody wouldn't like the pattern.
And I don't think that removing the walls entirely is a practical alternative.
Sound silly? You bet.
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I am not fond of proselytizing in the subways. You have various people who stand at the top of the escalators sometimes and hand out little pamphlets, or Jehovah's witnesses who hand out their little magazines. Then as you leave through the gates you get people who are singing some hymn or other, and maybe a guy with a sandwich board with a christian slogan that says the end is near. It is an opportunity to get a message to a lot of people because you are packed together like sardines. I don't mind the advertisements that much. It is when you put in philosophical or religious statements that you get interesting things.
One of the most uncomfortable experiences is when someone gets up and starts preaching loudly on a moving subway train. -
@wehireu In a standing room only situation on the DC Metro, the advertisements are often the only thing you can stare at without violating someone's private space. And the ads Norski shows on his blog hardly amount to proselytizing. Indeed, such a characterization misses the point.
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Muslims Are Like Everyone Else
Muslims are just like everyone else. Most people everywhere, Muslim and non-Muslim, want peace, are against terrorism. Most large populations have some hotheads who want to fight the other guys, whomever the other guys happen to be.
Military Response in the 'Stans
The exception is the big party in Pakistan/Afghanistan, where Muslim fighters are concentrating. The US is getting ready to bomb that area into a form of kitty litter, so I am not worried about it.
Promoting Islam in the Subways
Sounds like freedom of speech to me.-
And MisterDog arrives, and gives the ONLY credible answer in this entire thread;
Promoting Islam in the Subways
Sounds like freedom of speech to me.
The only legitimate excuse there is to allow the posters to go up. Whether we like it or not, this IS STILL America.
And I think that effectively winds up the thread for good. -
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